Cleon

[ubiquitous]

Okay, so this has been bugging me the last few days. In PotS, there's only ever mention of his mother and himself. There's no mention of a father or older brothers, and he's the one going back to the fief to help his mother raise money after the floods. So is Cleon the Lord of Kennan?

[boosette]

It could be that his mother held the fief in Cleon's name until he came of age, or that it's one of the ones that passes from eldest child to eldest child and she holds it in her own right.

I don't know if it's quasi-canon or real canon, but I remember Pierce mentioning somewhere that he has a sister who was disowned for joining the Queen's Riders instead of being a proper noble girl and making a good marriage.

[Lisa]

His sister being a Rider was in canon - I don't remember the disowning, though.

There's always the chance of having an invalid father; there was previously a war in Tortall, after all.

[boosette]

It seems like Tortall has been in a nearly perpetual state of war or almost-war since SotL - Tusaine, Ozorne, Scanra - three significant conflicts in two generations is quite a lot - to say nothing of Roger's attempted coup.

[Lisa]

And there's an ongoing problem with bandits and now Immortals. Anyone could be maimed!

[Rosie]

Mar 13, 2009 6:14:09 GMT 10 Lisa said:

And there's an ongoing problem with bandits and now Immortals. Anyone could be maimed!

Still sore about that scene in First Test?

[Lisa]

LOL! No, hurrocks gave my lord ample opportunity to show his bravery and his general fondness for children. I bet after he rescued them, he attempted to juggle for them with his one non-maimed arm.

[ubiquitous]

Mar 13, 2009 2:32:28 GMT 10 @boosette said:

It could be that his mother held the fief in Cleon's name until he came of age, or that it's one of the ones that passes from eldest child to eldest child and she holds it in her own right.

I don't know if it's quasi-canon or real canon, but I remember Pierce mentioning somewhere that he has a sister who was disowned for joining the Queen's Riders instead of being a proper noble girl and making a good marriage.

But can women hold a title in Tortall? There's the case of Maura, but that seems like it might be more the exception rather than the rule. After all, Trebond reverted to the Crown after Thom died, rather than going to Alanna.

Also, if it was til he came of age, then that would mean upon his knighthood, yes?

[Rosie]

Is it not specific property? Alanna's heiress to Olau, after all. I think older properties (i.e. Book of Gold families?) are still along the patriarchal line, but otherwise, it's the eldest child?

[ubiquitous]

That's a good point. But considering that that old line is then 'dead' wouldn't it be more practical to have it pass to a woman?

[Rosie]

From the point of view of keeping the fief in the family? Sure, and I sort of imagine Dunlath and Olau will be more common than Trebond, especially with Jon and Thayet secretly rolling back lots of unfair laws (or that's what I understand they're doing, from quasi-canon!).

I'd like to read about Coram and Rispah's family, actually. That'd make interesting fic.

[boosette]

I would to read about Coram and Rispah's family - I'd kindof like to see Alan marry back into Trebond (marrying, I believe, his second cousin [once removed?] which isn't gross or unusual at all, really.)

That said, I wonder what the crown thinks about the "no male heir property reverts to the crown" clauses in some of the older noble families' charters - I imagine it would be quite a convenient thing to have happen to a more conservative family or two.

[ubiquitous]

I would think that not passing the property to a woman would be more a customary thing than a legal one. Unless it was supposed to pass to Alanna and she refused, but I have trouble seeing how that would work, especially considering that she was taking care of a lot of the Trebond stuff already.

It would make for interesting fic. Even Coram's exploits as a soldier would be quite interesting to read about.

[Rosie]

Mar 13, 2009 9:13:27 GMT 10 @boosette said:

I would to read about Coram and Rispah's family - I'd kindof like to see Alan marry back into Trebond (marrying, I believe, his second cousin [once removed?] which isn't gross or unusual at all, really.)

That said, I wonder what the crown thinks about the "no male heir property reverts to the crown" clauses in some of the older noble families' charters - I imagine it would be quite a convenient thing to have happen to a more conservative family or two.

Both interesting thoughts - and they'd both make great fics, actually! What would happen to the women in the second instance? I imagine Jonathan wouldn't make them homeless; would he have the power to override the patriarchy clause? I think I read that Alanna simply didn't want Trebond, otherwise he would have given it to her. I could be making that up, though, but it seems plausible to me

Mar 13, 2009 9:16:31 GMT 10 ubiquitous said:

I would think that not passing the property to a woman would be more a customary thing than a legal one. Unless it was supposed to pass to Alanna and she refused, but I have trouble seeing how that would work, especially considering that she was taking care of a lot of the Trebond stuff already.

It would make for interesting fic. Even Coram's exploits as a soldier would be quite interesting to read about.

Nope, it legally reverted to the Crown after the failure of the male line. Actually, I know the Crown now can be inherited by the eldest child, rather than the eldest male - one of those reforms Thayet and Jon just snuck by the conservatives

[Lisa]

According to Tammy, the passing of the title/land depends on the contract that was made when the land was initially doled out. So, while Alanna couldn't inherit, Coram's daughter might be able to.

It does make sense that it's rather malleable, considering that Tortall has changes in its attitudes toward women over the years.

[rainstormamaya]

I do know that in medieval England (there was a book called The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England, and how could I not read it with that title?) it was common for land to pass to its owner's sister's son- the implication being that while he might not know whether his own children were his by blood, he definitely knew his nephew was related to him. Charming, no? Cleon's mother could have been the sister of the original lord of Kennan, who could have died and the fief passed to Cleon.

[ubiquitous]

Mar 15, 2009 7:47:44 GMT 10 rainstormamaya said:

I do know that in medieval England (there was a book called The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England, and how could I not read it with that title?) it was common for land to pass to its owner's sister's son- the implication being that while he might not know whether his own children were his by blood, he definitely knew his nephew was related to him. Charming, no? Cleon's mother could have been the sister of the original lord of Kennan, who could have died and the fief passed to Cleon.

Well, Joren was Lord Burchard's nephew, and it was sorta implicit that he was his heir in his death scene in Squire as well.

[ubiquitous]

Sorry for the double post, but it's been a while since the last one.

Mar 13, 2009 5:45:32 GMT 10 Lisa said:

His sister being a Rider was in canon - I don't remember the disowning, though.

There's always the chance of having an invalid father; there was previously a war in Tortall, after all.

I just read in Squire that his father died young. It's just before the second Wyldon joust where Cleon mentions marrying Kel and there's that thing about Ermelian..

[Lisa]

I just read in Squire that his father died young.

Wow... I can't believe I didn't catch that. So, would Cleon be titled (beyond knighthood)?

[opalgirl]

Cleon would probably be titled something like Lord/Baron Sir Cleon (depending on the state of Kennan - we don't know how old of a fief it is or how blue-blooded.)

If the property in Tortall still passes to a male heir, wouldn't that screw over Roald and Shinkokami's quasi-canon daughter, Lianokami? The throne would pass to her brother, if she had one... or Roald's brothers.

Unless Jon and Thayet sneakily changed that particular method of inheritance. Maybe, in the years since Thom died and Trebond reverted to the Crown, things have changed?

[boosette]

Quasi-canon also has Jon & Thayet amending the law to allow the first-born child to inherit (IIRC Roald would not have been grandfather claused in if he'd been a girl, but since he wasn't a girl it wasn't an issue.)

[Lisa]

Cleon would probably be titled something like Lord/Baron Sir Cleon (depending on the state of Kennan - we don't know how old of a fief it is or how blue-blooded.)

We also don't know if he has an older brother. He marries to save the fief, but it could be because he's the only unmarried Kennan who can.

[boosette]

We have achieved quasi-canon!

3. Cleon. He seems to always be running the fief with his mother. His father is dead and there's no mention of other brothers. Is he the Lord of Kennan, or is there some other thing going on?

He wasn't of age before. Now he is Baron Sir Cleon of Kennan. [ source ]

I would just like to take a moment to gloat about having called that in like ... 2003.

Which seems to imply that Tortallan children cannot hold titles until the Tortallan age of majority - something that prevents a great deal of problems (child-king executes the playmate who took his toy bunny) and creates others (power-hungry regents infighting with one another.)

[Lisa]

is anyone compiling a list of quasi-canon? This stuff NEEDS to be documented on a site that's more user-friendly than the Words of Tamora Pierce. As great as that site is for surfing, it's sometimes hard to find specifics.

[opalgirl]

....

I have a patched-together document entitled "The Tortallan cheat sheet of DOOOM" on my computer... but that's honestly just bits and pieces (births and notable events, family trees, the structure of the Riders)... at random.

Not helpful for anybody else, but I like my cheat sheet of DOOOM.

[Lisa]

That's kind of what I have, but it's nowhere as comprehensive as it could be. We should consider putting something on the website.

[ubiquitous]

I suspected it might be the case, but I'm glad it's confirmed!

I'm putting these things on the wiki as we speak. I have about 20 pages of stuff to sift through from just the first five pages of sheroes posts (I haven't gotten further yet), plus the stuff on random buzzers.

I might start a thread though, for contributions, although members of the site should be able to edit it, like a normal wiki

[Amdillae]

Mar 13, 2009 8:51:46 GMT 10 Rosie said:

Is it not specific property? Alanna's heiress to Olau, after all. I think older properties (i.e. Book of Gold families?) are still along the patriarchal line, but otherwise, it's the eldest child?

Ok it has been a while since I have read LR but I remember Alanna saying that since she was female you couldn't be heir to the title Baron of Olau, but she was considered Myles heir in all other respects.

[Rojo]

Ok it has been a while since I have read LR but I remember Alanna saying that since she was female you couldn't be heir to the title Baron of Olau, but she was considered Myles heir in all other respects.

Yeah, when Alanna, Coram, and Lian ran into Buri and Thayet in LR, I thought Alanna said women could inheirit property, but not titles. If my memory serves me correct, Thayet and Buri thought that was pretty darn awesome.

[ubiquitous]

I think it'd probably be sorta similar to the situation of Alanna and Coram in Trebond.