Fate
Squire
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Post by Fate on Mar 25, 2009 11:31:42 GMT 10
So the prostitution thread got me thinking.
Do you think there are drugs in Tortall and what role do you think they play?
I can't remember a reference to any drugs in any or the Tortall books (though in Emelan's Magic Steps the young mage works for 'dragon salts', which I interpreted as a drug close to cocaine). But I am fairly confident that drugs would have been a part of the Tortall world. Not so much in the noble class, though I am sure there were incidents (oh god, the urge to fanfic is becoming stronger!), so perhaps that's why we've never heard mention of it since in Tortall we often deal with the upper class and the higher moral upper class at that. Maybe in Bloodhound or it's sequels (*eagerly awaits*) we'll be introduced to the drug culture or Tortall.
Any thoughts?
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Rojo
Queen's Rider
There once was a girl who was told she could, and so she did.
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Post by Rojo on Mar 25, 2009 11:35:40 GMT 10
Drugs are something I never really thought about in the past. However, I must agree with basically everything you have said. =}
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 25, 2009 11:40:43 GMT 10
Well, there's wakeflower, and I recall that Kel makes reference to poppy, which is used for opium. There's also dreamrose, used to drug Daine, if I recall right. There's probably others, but I don't recall off the top of my head.
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Fate
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Post by Fate on Mar 25, 2009 11:54:20 GMT 10
Oh yeahhhhhhh. I remember poppy being mentioned now. If I recall Tobe even accuses Kel of being on poppy XD
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 25, 2009 12:28:02 GMT 10
Yeah that was the scene I was thinking of. A couple of others are mentioned too, I just don't have LK with me atm to check for the references.
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Post by k4writer02 on Mar 25, 2009 12:38:45 GMT 10
I think it depends on the way we define drugs. People before me made excellent points about poppy and wakeflower, and when I get home, I'll check Terrier, because I think Beka meets a criminal who is using a highly addictive substance. (is that okay to put in this forum? I don't think it's a spoiler)
But there is definitely substance abuse in the Tortall books--by the time Kel becomes his squire, Raoul stays away from alcohol because of his problems with it. And it's often implied in Alanna: the First Adventure that Myles drinks too much. Though now I wonder if he really did or if he pretends too in order to disarm nobles who think him pathetic and allow him to ferret out more information. Or maybe Eleni had a hand in his different choices.
So while there may be some drugs associated with certain classes, I do think there are problems with addiction or substance abuse across the classes.
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Post by Lindsay on Mar 25, 2009 14:27:40 GMT 10
--Tobe, in Lady Knight
So there definitely is some sort of drug culture in Tortall, as Tobe quickly lists three unusual drug names off the top of his head. I like the idea of laughing powder-- sounds sort of like the effects of marijuana. Rainbow dream sounds like some sort of psychedelic drug like LSD.
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 25, 2009 14:29:33 GMT 10
That was the one I was thinking of. And I think there are parallels to drugs in our world, much like you described
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Fate
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Post by Fate on Mar 25, 2009 14:54:24 GMT 10
Edit: Oops, people posted in the time I was replying. Substance abuse is definitely present in Tortall. Technically alcohol is a drug. It would be interesting to see Raoul when he had a problem with alcohol. All I remember the books saying about it is something like, 'He doesn't like alcohol, he had a problem with it when he was younger. It turns him into someone he doesn't like.' What do you think that person was like? That's a good point about Myles though, I never thought about it before. Thank you so much for finding that little bit by Tobe! I remembered something like that but I don' have my TP books here I'm interested now to read about this character who's addicted to an addictive substance. Does it say much about it? Wait, maybe don't answer that- too spoilerish? I'm really wishing we could learn more. What is the drug culture? I'm sure the drugs would be illegal. But what would be the punishment? Would there be a black market of smuggled drugs? What kind of drugs would there be? An equivalent to marijuana? Cocaine? Really? I didn't get that. I thought of it more as a drug equivalent to E or maybe even cocaine.Something about 'laughing dust' isn't marijuana to me.
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Post by Lindsay on Mar 25, 2009 14:56:27 GMT 10
Lady Knight was sitting in my bed as I'm currently rereading it, so it was only too easy to find that passage. I have to wonder if a parallel would even be necessary-- couldn't something like marijuana be grown just as easily in Tortall as in the real world? Maybe Tortallans just haven't smoked the right stuff yet. What drugs existed in the pre-modern era that a world like Tortall would have access to? They probably wouldn't have anything the equivalent to LSD since that was developed in 1938 (according to my Wiki skills), but they undoubtedly would have known properties of hallucinogenic mushrooms. Can't you imagine some idiot villager ingesting whatever mushrooms they found in the woods behind their house? Actually, the wiki article on mushrooms mentions North Africa-- could Carthak maybe have quite the business in hallucinogenic mushrooms? Maybe there were other reasons for Ozorne's insanity. ETA: I don't think they would have been illegal. The opium trade was enormous only a few hundred years ago, and many drugs were legal up until this century. With the way the nobles treated the commoners in the PotS-era, I doubt they care much about what they were doing to mess themselves up.
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 25, 2009 16:26:55 GMT 10
I doubt they'd be illegal either. Of course, there are health issues and stuff, but considering the reason drugs became illegal in our world in the first place was as a way to limit imports and maintain monopolies or whatever, I'd say it's highly doubtful.
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Post by boosette on Mar 26, 2009 8:14:04 GMT 10
Alcohol is a drug (snip) All I remember the books saying about it is something like, 'He doesn't like alcohol, he had a problem with it when he was younger. It turns him into someone he doesn't like.' Looking at that from a literary standpoint, giving Raoul a drinking problem and to a greater extent, keeping Daine & Kel as non-drinkers is such a '90s thing to do - it feels tacked on and out of place in a supposedly medieval-based world, where the choices were essentially "drink beer" or "die of cholera". Like she sacrificed an aspect of SotL worldbuilding that was actually quite realistic to the YA-marketing sensibilities of the time. Illegal opiates are still huge, and the upper class still doesn't care about the ultimate well-being of the people addicted to them. It was only regulated in the US, IIRC, in the 19teens. Just look at the way heroin users are castigated (I bet most people on this board have some unexamined prejudices toward drug users - which I don't mean to be mean or snappish, but as something to genuinely think about.) I think a lot of the presentation of drug-presence in Tortall, in that it's presented but in a sniffly, holier than thou kind of way (Tobe-the-street-rat offers his expertise; Kel-the-noble-heroine shoots it down immediately and hotly) is based in the D.A.R.E. culture of the US in the 1990s - Drugs Are Bad, The People Who Do Them Aren't Worth The Muck On Your Shoe, Never Ever Drink Or Smoke Or Do Drugs EVER If Your Loved Ones Drink Or Smoke Or Do Drugs They Are Bad People And Not Worth Your Consideration . It's a culture I'm none too fond of, myself. I'd prefer everything be legalized, regulated, made safe for use and taxed than controlled as it is now (in a manner that patently doesn't work. Hey, anyone want to go set up a topic for this in Backalley so I don't threadjack any further?)
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Fate
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Post by Fate on Mar 26, 2009 8:27:12 GMT 10
I got that feeling too. I've actually always got that feeling, that Tortall is a little self righteous. I seem to remember that in Magic Steps Duke Verdis expresses extreme hatred for 'dragonsalts'. Tammy can support pre-marital sex, homosexuality, and rebelling teens- but not drugs. For you Candace, anything
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Post by Lindsay on Mar 26, 2009 9:01:55 GMT 10
Reading PotS for the first time (ages 12-13), I wouldn't have imagined it any other way. Reading it as a first year college student, I felt... mildly irritated at Raoul's sobriety. I liked the way his character had parallels to a modern day recovering alcoholic, but I think you're right, a lot of the anti-substance abuse thing was preachy. I found myself rolling my eyes a bit when Kel refused to drink because it gave her a headache.
We still have Myles, I suppose. But he's more of Tortall's Token Drunk.
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 26, 2009 9:42:03 GMT 10
Actually, I didn't find Kel's refusal that odd, because it mentions that she doesn't like the 'loose, carefree feelings it gives her' or something to that effect. And Kel is nothing if not in control of herself. And possibly she can't hold her liquor. Though, if I recall right, Aly was a bit anti-drinking too, and that did annoy me a little.
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Post by boosette on Mar 26, 2009 11:09:21 GMT 10
Every Tortallan heroine since Alanna has been pretty anti-booze, IIRC. I have to wonder if it's not because of all the times Tammy's been asked, "But why do Alanna & Co drink in SotL???" at signings and such.
I think Myles isn't so much of a drunkard as we're led to believe - it's a pretty effective cover if you want people to speak freely with you.
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Post by Lisa on Mar 26, 2009 12:53:18 GMT 10
And she gets headaches. So you're right - the girl can't hold her liquor. (or isn't smart enough to know to keep herself hydrated!)
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Post by chocolatefridays on Mar 26, 2009 13:19:35 GMT 10
I was actually pretty surprised at the lack of drug use in Terrier. I vaguely remembered it being mentioned before, which you have brought up. Maybe in Bloodhound.
Alcohol, I do remember. I haven't read it in a while, so I don't remember specific examples, but I do remember that Beka didn't drink. It did bother me a bit, because just because someone drinks does not (always) make them a bad person. And, if Terrier was a parallel to a real time in history, choosing water over alcohol just would be considered unhealthy.
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 26, 2009 13:25:52 GMT 10
About the water vs alcohol health argument, I think the assumption is that, generally in Tortall, clean water is readily available or people can detect if water isn't clean, from those spelled corks and stuff.
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Post by boosette on Mar 26, 2009 13:31:19 GMT 10
*nods*
Among the upper/wealthy classes I can see this - notsomuch in the lower city, because I can see it as the kind of expense that people in a position to have to make the choice would choose rent or some other expense over mage-purified water. (Although I am going off Word of Author here re: "this is why Tortallans drink").
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 26, 2009 13:35:00 GMT 10
Well, I'm not 100% about how the water works in the cities, but in the towns I would assume that the water wells themselves would be spelled against such things.
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Post by boosette on Mar 26, 2009 13:40:34 GMT 10
Well, I'm not 100% about how the water works in the cities, but in the towns I would assume that the water wells themselves would be spelled against such things. Oh absolutely, assuming they had a hedgewitch to do it - in the cities I can see corrupt people making sure that the spelled wells come with a cover-charge or something.
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Post by iridescentdaisies on Mar 28, 2009 19:37:24 GMT 10
What bothered me about some of this, even more than destroying the world-building, was the canonical inconsistency it created. Somehow, mages and Daine were suddenly unable to drink without horrible consequences in the later books, yet in SotL mages were. These mages included Alanna (while not Numair, a much more powerful sorceress than most) and Jon (with his own not-inconsiderable gift, Crown magic, Bazhir magic, and the Dominion Jewel's magic.)
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Mar 29, 2009 5:56:43 GMT 10
Yeah, actually I never really realized that happening ... but if you think about it it is quite annoying how the attitude to alcohol changed, the one on the Alanna books was the most reasonable - and we get to see how the lower class deals with it in Alanna and Jon's visits to George and the court of thieves.
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rainstormamaya
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Post by rainstormamaya on Mar 29, 2009 10:10:27 GMT 10
I never really had a problem with the attitude to alcohol once I came across the spelled-cork bit meaning they could test their water for safety -I didn't really notice it, in fact- but I do think that maybe the inconsistency with the mages could be explained that they can't drink much. Daine could have a glass or two of wine, maybe. It would depend on how well they could hold their liquor, I imagine, but a mage not in control of themselves because they were drunk would be dangerous.
I also seem to remember that Aly's problem was with the really seriously alcoholic stuff Chenaol had, but don't remember anything about milder alcohol- though I could be wrong... *goes back to check TC and TQ*
in the cities I can see corrupt people making sure that the spelled wells come with a cover-charge or something.
Definitely! I could see Claw or someone having a quiet sideline in it circa-SotL- though I suspect George would not approve.
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Post by boosette on Mar 29, 2009 10:47:34 GMT 10
So, a couple beers = okay
while half a bottle of vodka ≠ okay?
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Mar 29, 2009 13:33:36 GMT 10
see that's it the usual knight , noble or commoner had some wine or beer during the day and with dinner. The earlier beer or mead had less alcohol than our european beer at least) has now. I am not quite sure about wine but as far as I know medieval wine had less alcohol then ours today, and wine has actually proven to be pretty healthy if you don't overdo it and the alcohol content level isn't that high. Higher content alcohol is a different thing, especially as there always was and actually is the risk of poisening with homeburned alcohol through Methanol - in the worst case leading to permanent blindness and death.
Getting to the state of alcoholism is a lot harder on low alcohol % content with the higher contents possibly being reduced to the very rich who can afford to have their strong alcohol tested or the very ill / the healers- high alcohol content as a healing lotion / healing aid / desinfection has been known for a while
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Apr 3, 2009 11:44:25 GMT 10
Add on to the thing about poisened alcohol, - European news are reporting a case of contaminated alcohol (Raki) One guy died from methanol poisoning two more are still in ICU and in a coma.
So homemade spirits (not beer or wine) that are also distilled at home are seriously dangerous -
and now imagine a quasi medieval world that has no way to test alcohol for methanol contamination ... so distilled spirits might have been quite low on the list of alcohols consumed
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Post by thepurpletyrant on Apr 4, 2009 12:24:15 GMT 10
I was actually pretty surprised at the lack of drug use in Terrier. I vaguely remembered it being mentioned before, which you have brought up. Maybe in Bloodhound. Alcohol, I do remember. I haven't read it in a while, so I don't remember specific examples, but I do remember that Beka didn't drink. It did bother me a bit, because just because someone drinks does not (always) make them a bad person. And, if Terrier was a parallel to a real time in history, choosing water over alcohol just would be considered unhealthy. There were some mentions of drugs in Terrier. Orva, the woman with the meat cleaver that Beka chases down, was on 'hotblood wine.' I know in the glossary, TP defines it as compared to another modern drug. I think it might have been meth, but don't quote me. Beka does go out drinking with Kora, Aniki, and Rosto once and mentions she got *really* drunk. I inferred that Beka drinks in moderation when she isn't on duty (the first time she goes to the Mantle and Pullet with Goodwin and Tunstall she specifically gets something non alcoholic, but I attributed it being on the job). I don't remember her specifically saying she's completely abstinent though.
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Post by nicolasophie on Apr 4, 2009 12:57:48 GMT 10
Yes, Beka always gets "barley water' when she's on duty - i thought she didn't get just water because either water wasn't reliable, or back then water wasn't really considered a drink you can order at a pub/restaurant etc. But i think she gets drunk/drinks moderately when not on duty. After all, it would be quite embarassing for the puppy to get so drunk she embarasses her dogs/dies while on duty.
Generally, from my experience, teenagers either really condemn getting drunk - huge moral disapproval etc - but then once they reach the age of underage drinking, we all go a bit too far. Could Kel's refusal of alcohol etc be because she was that kind of girl - who tried hard, and didn't associate with the 'cool' kids at school who snuck drinks behind their parents' backs - and then once she got older and realised alcohol was part of life, she didn't want to embarass herself/ it was a control thing?
Also, I don't remember Alanna ever getting drunk - she, Jon, Gary, Raoul would have ale at the Dove, but obviously Alanna would never get drunk when she's meant to be ALAN - bad bad things can happen if she opens her mouth. But i liked that she used spirits to "clear her head" - surely that would be normal in medieval period?
I think Kel's aversion to alcohol is very 2000s teenage girl judgemental, and doesn't fit with her time.
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