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Post by Tamari on Apr 29, 2021 2:30:31 GMT 10
We haven't talked about this in a while, so I thought it would be interesting to hear from our new members!
What are your favorite ships in the Tortall universe? Were there canon romances you found particularly interesting or compelling? Are there characters who never met (or stayed friends) who you think would make a great romantic pair?
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Post by devilinthedetails on Apr 29, 2021 5:59:17 GMT 10
Ah, time for me to list all my guilty pleasures  Going to organize by series because that seems the best way. Also, I'll go by chronological rather than publication order just because that's what my mood wants to do. Beka Cooper books: Nestor/Okha: I love both these characters and their relationships. Also, the fact that they chose to take in Haden and Truda won my heart even more. Beka/Rosto: I admit I kind of wanted these two to be together after Terrier, but it never happened unfortunately. I just thought it would've been really cool if Beka ended up falling for the ultimate rogue as it were. Matthias Tunstall/Sabine: Tunstall and Sabine are awesome characters in their own right, I love how their romance crosses class boundaries, and there is something tragic about how a large part of the destruction of their romance and Tunstall's downfall comes from that gap between their classes. Song of the Lioness books: Alanna/George: I have nostalgic feelings for this pairing, and the two of them often make me laugh when they tease each other. They just seem to be "right" for one another to me. Jon/Thayet: Definitely one of my favorite pairings to write about because to me they do seem to really love one another and then there is all the political drama that can be explored in fanfic as well. Buri/Raoul: All the yes to these two being together, and I'm putting them as a couple for this series because in my head canon they totally fell in love early on but stubbornly refused to realize it. But the attraction was real between them from the beginning in my head canon. The Immortals books: Miri/Evin: These two are totally a couple in my head canon and always teasing and pranking each other. Kaddar/Daine: At least in a childhood crush way. Protector of the Small books: Roald/Shinko: Possibly my biggest Tamora Pierce OTP. This couple totally stole my heart from the time that Kel described them as being destined to have the politest marriage ever. For a couple that is always respectful and sweet with one another, this is often my go-to pairing because they are just that adorable to me. Give me all the Roald and Shinko romance. Kel/Dom: Cliche but I really think their personalities would mesh well together, and I do love how Dom is always respectful of Kel and she never has to prove herself to him. Yuki/Neal: These two sharp-tongued people belong together forever in my opinion, and I love that Yuki is able to put Neal in his place, haha. Trickster's Books: Sarai/ Zaimid: Zaimid stole my heart along with Sarai's and I just want all the best things for this couple. Kaddar/Kalasin: I think this could be an awesome power pairing of two strong and passionate people. I like to explore their relationship in fanfic. |
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Post by mistrali on Apr 30, 2021 6:28:38 GMT 10
A lot of the same ships as Devil’s! SOTL: * Alanna/Jon and Alanna/George are two ships where I truly can’t decide. I love Alanna/George long-term, but the chemistry between Jon and Alanna was great in SOTL and I’m always intrigued by AU concepts that explore this idea. Obviously would require a lot of juggling of canon and Jon’s behaviour — and even then I can’t see it ending well — but the premise is fascinating, and fuel for so much angst I actually quite like the Thom/Roger/Alex dynamic, but that is less a ship than my wanting to explore the weird, dark, screwed-up magical manipulation that is their trio at the end of SOTL. TIQ: Kalasin/Kaddar: Oh, these two are my only real OTP of OTPs. The entire conceit of the royal arranged marriage, two such strong-willed people from solid families marrying, different cultures, opulence, misunderstandings, culture clash, just... the whole intriguing journey of knowing they rule well but not having a map for their journey there. I almost don’t want official Kallydar books because it will joss so much of my headcanon. Honorary mention: Roald/Shinko, because I can’t write them to save my life but I absolutely love fics about them. For a lot of the same reasons as Kalasin & Kaddar, except that I associate Roald and Shinko with all things delicate, beautiful and peaceful. ‘Paradisal’ is the word for their marriage. Trickster: Sarai/Zaimid, because again, two very minor characters in such an unexplored canvas of a series. This has a star-crossed lovers flavour to it — circumstances were less than ideal, but both of them found each other out of it. Beka Cooper: Beka/Dale, because oh man, I just loved the aspect of Beka’s character he brought out. He’s a bit like George or Rosto — he’s got this bad-boy appeal that brings Beka a fair way out of her shell. We see such a different side to her - going to parties and gambling and just generally having a good time. |
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Post by Idleness on May 29, 2021 9:51:49 GMT 10
I don't think I'm a super big shipper, so I had to think about this. I'll go with the flow on a lot of stuff, but I guess there are two ships that I really, really like.
Buri/Raoul: I love both characters, and I also just love that they get together like in their 30s after being friends. It feels comfortable and companionable. I think I love this ship even more as I get older.
Dove/unsuitable lovers: I just really like the idea that older Dove doesn't pick a consort, and just picks lovers she wants and doesn't care if they're not conventional, like artists and poets and academics.
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Post by katanasundancer on Jun 15, 2021 19:51:40 GMT 10
Kel/Dom is my OTP. I've tried to write Kel with other people but I just can't. They are such a good team - they worked together for the better part of four years. He always backs her up but more importantly, he makes her laugh. She needs that sort of happy company.
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oskarshai
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Post by oskarshai on Jul 23, 2021 19:10:36 GMT 10
I'm late, but I've a list! (TW for fictional incest mention on a couple of these, bc I know it creeps a lot of people out) Song of the Lioness:Roger/Alanna: I just realized on this last reread how much I love them and even had tons of fun compiling a little list of my favorite in-canon crumbs of their relationship, of which there were a surprising amount (surprising to me, anyways, since it's been years). They have this weird, funky little love/hate, frenemies-overlaid-with-genuinely-vicious-and-highly-personal-emotion vibe going that I just absolutely adore, plus they're both queer icons (btw, Roger's flashy multicolored clothes + Alanna's iconique gold mail set, yes please, camp excellence). They're probably the relationship that I'm the most interested in and would want to write/read about the most out of all the books just because I think they're so fun together, even though I ship a lot of other things too. (Plus, need I say it? Chapel of the Ordeal vision sequence.) Jon/Alanna: Ship of my heart from when I was a kid. I get such a gay-schoolboy-crush, genderqueer vibe from their relationship in the first two books in particular that I just absolutely adore, and their fractious relationship combined with the undercurrent of absolute, unfaltering, ride-or-die loyalty is 100% my fave. I think they can be a little overly maligned as a couple because of Jonathan's bratty phase in WWRLAM and the queen issue, but I personally see no reason why Alanna couldn't have just been a very unconventional queen along Thayet's lines and continued doing her thing and screwing the rules. In any case, every time they're in a scene together (even long into the just-friends years), I still feel like I can feel their chemistry and it's just so good.
Thom/Alanna: I like shipcest a lot, so if you know me it's not a shock that I would ship the twins, but I particularly like how it plays in with Thom's narcissistic, human-disaster vibes and just how tragic and angsty and all-around miserable this relationship would be. (But I like fluffy versions of them too.)
Roger/Thom/Alanna and Roger/Jon/Alanna: I love both of these, especially how they're both really dark and messed up but in ways that feel very different and involve very distinct dynamics.
Jon/Thayet/Alanna: Only permutation of Jon/Thayet that I can easily enjoy, but it's amazing. Would have probably been my second choice for canon, after Jon/Alanna, given my druthers.
George/Alanna (queerplatonic): I do think their relationship is cute as a romance, but I also really enjoy the idea of them as sweet QPR partners who raise kids together.
The Immortals:
Rikash/Daine: Of any Immortals ship, this is probably the one I have the strongest feelings about, though that's not a super high bar. But in any case, I love any version of their relationship and I find it interesting basically no matter what. Plus I love the additional weird hurdle of him being a Stormwing, because I like a challenge.
Numair/Daine: Somewhat mixed feelings about how it's handled in the quartet proper and I could have done without the teacher/student angle, but I do like their relationship a lot in general, especially as it appears in POTS. I love that they're basically seen by everybody else as just two little weirdos being weird together, feels queer, feels iconic. Kaddar/Daine: I too think the idea of a youthful crush between these two would've been cute, although mainly I just think part of me pines for more Daine relationships with people her own age, lol.
Protector of the Small: Kel/anybody: I'm not picky! I like any Kel ship, even the weird ones, but the more popular ones too. My special favorite is probably Kel/Lalasa though, bc they kinda give me The Handmaiden energy (Kel rescuing Lalasa from Vinson and Lalasa saying that she knew Kel would come save her is one of my favorite moments in POTS). I also like the more canon-y aro/ace Kel too, though. She's very versatile.  Roald/Shinko: They are really, really cute and I adore both of their personalities. I haven't read a ton of fic for them or anything (though I should) but I do love them. Tricksters: Ulasim/Aly: I'm half kidding because I don't really have any strong feelings about any Tricksters ships (I like Aly/Nawat okay and I occasionally consider shipping Aly/Kyprioth just because their dynamic is fun). But once I thought of these two the idea started making me sad and then I started taking it too seriously and whoops.
Beka Cooper: Beka/Rosto: (I'm basic. I'm basic. Don't look at me.) – But tbh, I felt like they were kind of like an alternate take on George/Alanna that I could get behind more, because they have that level of conflict or difficulty from the fact that Rosto is a criminal that adds interest – I tend to go much more for ships with more potential for conflict or drama or angst than ships with less – but also great personal chemistry, and they don't have the (forgive me) 80s romance writing to bog things down. I was really bummed when it didn't go anywhere.
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Post by Kypriotha on Jul 24, 2021 8:40:18 GMT 10
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Post by mistrali on Jul 24, 2021 20:13:39 GMT 10
oskarshai: With Alanna and Thayet, I think, they are two very different people. Alanna could have (and let’s face it, would have) been an unconventional queen if she’d had to, but she would’ve gritted her teeth and done it like she did algebra. She would’ve loathed it. She’s very much an adventurer, not a politician. Thayet is unconventional within certain boundaries, but she is also careful not to be too unconventional, so as not to alienate the conservative nobles (case in point: Kel). Alanna would lose her temper half a dozen times, sledgehammer forth out of sheer misery and iron-headedness, set the palace on fire (figuratively speaking) during arguments with Jon, and blow up when Jon acted like a prize dickhead. Thayet... Thayet doesn’t take his crap and he knows it. Jon/Alanna is one of the few ships I actually shipped in a romantic/sexual sense as a kid. They have heaps of chemistry and I think it would’ve worked out had Jon been able to, say, remain unmarried and adopt, or rule by proxy, or abdicate. Or have an open relationship where he co-ruled with a consort in name only, but married and had children with Alanna. I know he gets a lot of flack in canon, but I think it would have worked out as both of them learnt to deal with their conflicts better. But with Jon as king... nope. Alanna either needed someone like George, who would let her do her thing and could stay at home and help raise the kids, or who would travel everywhere (with her or separately). George also defuses Alanna’s strops marvellously by laughing them off and, when that doesn’t work, being so gallant and loving that she can’t be annoyed at whoever is annoying her. And he definitely (I like to think) doesn’t make decisions for her and then act like she’s being unreasonable. I also love A/J in fic - just can’t see them working out as end game, personally.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Jul 25, 2021 3:27:05 GMT 10
Alanna/Jon is very interesting to me as a ship. I do think they have a lot of natural chemistry, which may be helped in part by the fact that Tammy never fails to describe Jon's charisma and handsomeness in detail. I do feel a passion and a spark between them that I don't always feel with romances in YA books or books in general. I genuinely believe these two characters are attracted to each other and care about one another deeply in the SOTL books. I believed that Alanna was drawn to Jon in a way I never could believe that she was drawn to Liam, for example.
I also would agree that there is a tendency sometimes for people to potentially be too hard on this pairing. At least, speaking for myself, I believe that I was at one point. I used to see their relationship especially in Woman Who Rides Like a Man as very toxic and doomed to failure, but, the older I get, the more I appreciate it as being a great way for both Jon and Alanna to learn about love with someone that they love. To experiment and explore romantic relationships and to define what each of them wants from a marriage and long-term partner and to ultimately decide that each wants something different than the other can provide in terms of a marriage and long-term partner.
I really think for me the incompatibility between Jon and Alanna really only rears its ugly head in a meaningful way when the concept of marriage and long term partnership enters the equation. And I think a large part of that is because Jon will be king. Whom he marries isn't just a matter of personal attraction and love. It's a matter of state with massive political ramifications and implications. Because Jon's partner isn't just his wife. She's also his queen.
And I do kind of think that not only would Alanna not want to be queen, she'd also probably be a bad queen. I think she is perfect for being Jon's Champion but not for being his queen. She doesn't have an understanding of diplomacy and compromise (witness her blowup when Jon compromises with Wyldon regarding putting Kel on probation) which I think is essential for a queen. Nor does she really know how to conduct herself as a lady at court functions the way that Thayet does, and I suspect that isn't what she wants to do. If it was, she'd have gone to the convent when she was ten instead of pursuing page training. Being queen would come with diplomatic, political, and social expectations that I don't think Alanna would be prepared to meet, and that frankly, I think Thayet already pushes the boundaries on to about what I imagine Tortallans could tolerate in a queen. Thayet is about as unconventional a queen as I can really picture Tortall being able to handle without massive pushback from the convervatives which would make what Jon and Thayet deal with in POTS look like small potatoes.
If I remember right, Jon and Alanna had an argument in the desert in Woman Who Rides Like a Man where Alanna basically flings at him that he should marry one of the court ladies instead and he snaps back at her that at least they are ladies who know how to act like it. Obviously, Jon's answer is very harsh, but I do think it hits on a core truth about what Jon is seeking in a wife and queen. He is seeking someone who knows how to act like a lady when the situation calls for it. That is what he needs in a queen.
So, I actually think that in terms of marriage, both Alanna and Jon do avoid a potential disaster in marrying each other. Alanna would try to be a good queen, but I imagine it as a case of a square peg trying to wedge itself into a circular hole and only messing up the carpentry in the process. With the end result that neither Jon nor Alanna would be happy together. Alanna would chafe under the constrictions of being queen while Jon would probably find himself resenting that she couldn't be the lady and queen he needs her to be.
That being said, I think if Jon didn't need to marry someone who would be a good queen and know how to act like a lady, the couple could have worked. I do understand why Jon wanted someone who could be a good queen and know how to act like a lady for his partner, same as I can understand why Alanna would never want to be that good queen or woman who knows how to act like a lady. So, that is why I like their romance as a passion and first love that survives in a very deep friendship despite any arguments that arise between them and where they can both be in roles that suit them. Jon as king, and Alanna as a hero and Champion.
To me, Jon and Alanna are just two such passionate and strong-willed people who ended up not being compatible as husband and wife because they wanted different things in life and in marriage.
They might have worked as a couple, I think, if Jon in particular hadn't wanted marriage, but it wasn't really in Jon's nature to not want marriage because the expectation for him if he wanted to be a good king would be that he marry and provide the realm with a good queen and heirs. And I think Jon is in large part defined by his drive to be what he believes is a good king at all costs. My view of Jon is that he is ultimately willing to sacrifice anything--friendship, his love, etc--to be what he thinks is a good king. With Jon, I think being what he regards as a good king really does come first, and that is why I don't believe he and Alanna would've worked long term.
The same traits that made him fall in love with Alanna in the first place also meant that she wouldn't be able to be a good queen or long-term partner for him.
That being said, I have definitely written some Jon/Alanna fic from the In the Hand of the Goddess and Woman Who Rides Like a Man era, and I have started to have a soft spot for this pairing in a first love sense where both Jon and Alanna are learning about what it means to love someone romantically and what they want from a partner and a marriage. I don't think all romances or passions need to end in marriage, so I do like this couple as a ship especially if the end goal isn't marriage. If they are just being in love or sharing their passion for each other, this couple can be great. And one thing I do love about their romance is that a strong friendship undergirds it and that their love for one another is strong enough to survive even a nasty breakup. Whether or not they could make a marriage work, I was sold on the depth of their love for each other by the strength of their friendship alone. They really do have one of the best friendships in the Tortall universe in my opinion. And that is part of why I could buy a love story and passion between them during In the Hand of the Goddess and Woman Who Rides Like a Man.
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oskarshai
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Post by oskarshai on Jul 25, 2021 11:34:49 GMT 10
oskarshai : With Alanna and Thayet, I think, they are two very different people. Alanna could have (and let’s face it, would have) been an unconventional queen if she’d had to, but she would’ve gritted her teeth and done it like she did algebra. She would’ve loathed it. She’s very much an adventurer, not a politician. Thayet is unconventional within certain boundaries, but she is also careful not to be too unconventional, so as not to alienate the conservative nobles (case in point: Kel). Alanna would lose her temper half a dozen times, sledgehammer forth out of sheer misery and iron-headedness, set the palace on fire (figuratively speaking) during arguments with Jon, and blow up when Jon acted like a prize dickhead. It's not that I disagree with any of what you're saying, per se, because that's definitely very much in line with Alanna's thought process and how everything pretty much goes down in canon, but I guess it might just be that I'm not very attached to the idea of "character X could never adapt to or find a way to excel in situation Y." When I see a situation that seems like it would be a bad fit for a certain character or cause them a lot of grief or difficulty, my impulse is to kind of poke at and interrogate why that is and under what circumstance or when pushed to what extreme would they find a way to make the situation work for them. Alanna is very short-tempered, for instance, but everyone is capable of learning to manage their anger in such a way that they're not constantly blowing up at people around them, and so on – so what set of circumstances might produce a calmer Alanna who keeps herself tightly controlled? (It's of course very feasible that she might be unhappier, but I'm still interested in what the story would look like and how dramatically her character might evolve while still remaining the same person.) I guess I'm not really convinced of the fundamental impossibility of them having worked in the long term, although I know that a lot of people are – I think under the right set of circumstances they could have made it work, and to an extent the collapse of their relationship felt kind of arbitrary to me because a lot of it came from the time and situation just not being ideal. But when it comes right down to it, the level of functionality of the relationship is less important to me than how interesting I find the dynamic – it's not hard to write a romantic relationship where the two people love and respect each other, manage conflict well, and are basically a good team, but that's not necessarily accompanied by the relationship being interesting to read, dynamic, or compelling. (Not saying this intending it as a roast of either A/G or J/T, but part of the reason I'm not very interested in either as a romance is because I feel like they were sold to me mostly in terms of "X is/would be good for Y" – and like yeah, maybe that's true, but that doesn't mean anything to me in and of itself if I'm not already on board with the vibe.) To be frank, I think pretty much any pairing at all can be developed to a place where it could work in some type of endgame given careful writing, so the idea of it taking more work or more specific circumstances for any specific ship is more of a fun challenge for me than a deterrence. And I do kind of think that not only would Alanna not want to be queen, she'd also probably be a bad queen. I think she is perfect for being Jon's Champion but not for being his queen. She doesn't have an understanding of diplomacy and compromise (witness her blowup when Jon compromises with Wyldon regarding putting Kel on probation) which I think is essential for a queen. Nor does she really know how to conduct herself as a lady at court functions the way that Thayet does, and I suspect that isn't what she wants to do. If it was, she'd have gone to the convent when she was ten instead of pursuing page training. Being queen would come with diplomatic, political, and social expectations that I don't think Alanna would be prepared to meet, and that frankly, I think Thayet already pushes the boundaries on to about what I imagine Tortallans could tolerate in a queen. Thayet is about as unconventional a queen as I can really picture Tortall being able to handle without massive pushback from the convervatives which would make what Jon and Thayet deal with in POTS look like small potatoes. If I remember right, Jon and Alanna had an argument in the desert in Woman Who Rides Like a Man where Alanna basically flings at him that he should marry one of the court ladies instead and he snaps back at her that at least they are ladies who know how to act like it. Obviously, Jon's answer is very harsh, but I do think it hits on a core truth about what Jon is seeking in a wife and queen. He is seeking someone who knows how to act like a lady when the situation calls for it. That is what he needs in a queen. So, I actually think that in terms of marriage, both Alanna and Jon do avoid a potential disaster in marrying each other. Alanna would try to be a good queen, but I imagine it as a case of a square peg trying to wedge itself into a circular hole and only messing up the carpentry in the process. With the end result that neither Jon nor Alanna would be happy together. Alanna would chafe under the constrictions of being queen while Jon would probably find himself resenting that she couldn't be the lady and queen he needs her to be. The thing is, (and this is very much just my own take), my basically reading Jon and Alanna's relationship as fundamentally queer because of Alanna's genderfluidity makes me feel... not great about the idea of Jon 'needing' a queen who is capable of performing femininity at any time (or permanently). Not that I don't buy that that is a thought he might have, but my immediate reaction to that is that that's a problem he needs to work through wrt his own queerness and how he expresses it rather than a neutral statement about what he needs out of a marriage partner.
I don't know. The thing is, too, what Tortallans are able or willing to tolerate in their rulers or public figures is essentially arbitrary and varies by story, depending on the circumstances that will generate the most interest or conflict in the narrative. I can definitely picture a version of Tortall where they just eventually got used to Alanna as ruler, or viewed her as an accepted anomaly, or something like that, I guess is my point. I think the conflict about marriage and Alanna not wanting to be queen basically works in context as a meaningful and realistic conflict, but it just doesn't really play into my conception of the ship because it didn't necessarily have to happen that way.
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Post by mistrali on Jul 25, 2021 12:24:42 GMT 10
oskarshaiI guess I'm not really convinced of the fundamental impossibility of them having worked in the long term, although I know that a lot of people are – I think under the right set of circumstances they could have made it work, and to an extent the collapse of their relationship felt kind of arbitrary to me because a lot of it came from the time and situation just not being ideal. But when it comes right down to it, the level of functionality of the relationship is less important to me than how interesting I find the dynamic – it's not hard to write a romantic relationship where the two people love and respect each other, manage conflict well, and are basically a good team, but that's not necessarily accompanied by the relationship being interesting to read, dynamic, or compelling. (Not saying this intending it as a roast of either A/G or J/T, but part of the reason I'm not very interested in either as a romance is because I feel like they were sold to me mostly in terms of "X is/would be good for Y" – and like yeah, maybe that's true, but that doesn't mean anything to me in and of itself if I'm not already on board with the vibe.) To be frank, I think pretty much any pairing at all can be developed to a place where it could work in some type of endgame given careful writing, so the idea of it taking more work or more specific circumstances for any specific ship is more of a fun challenge for me than a deterrence. The thing is, (and this is very much just my own take), my basically reading Jon and Alanna's relationship as fundamentally queer because of Alanna's genderfluidity makes me feel... not great about the idea of Jon 'needing' a queen who is capable of performing femininity at any time (or permanently). Not that I don't buy that that is a thought he might have, but my immediate reaction to that is that that's a problem he needs to work through wrt his own queerness and how he expresses it rather than a neutral statement about what he needs out of a marriage partner. I don't know. The thing is, too, what Tortallans are able or willing to tolerate in their rulers or public figures is essentially arbitrary and varies by story, depending on the circumstances that will generate the most interest or conflict in the narrative. I can definitely picture a version of Tortall where they just eventually got used to Alanna as ruler, or viewed her as an accepted anomaly, or something like that, I guess is my point. I think the conflict about marriage and Alanna not wanting to be queen basically works in context as a meaningful and realistic conflict, but it just doesn't really play into my conception of the ship because it didn't necessarily have to happen that way. Oh, yeah, that’s understandable. I’m approaching it more from a “What’s best (or better) for Tortall at this point in time?” I would definitely be interested in seeing Queen Alanna in fic, successful or otherwise. I would be fascinated by a fic in which Alanna gets to that point of calm through trial by fire. I, like others, read her by LR as essentially an adventurer. There is something ‘heroic’ in her that would rebel at settling down; and I don’t know what it would take to tame that Lioness part of her into something more... well, political. She responds best to danger, unpredictability, even war. She thrives on it. How would that work — or not work — for Tortall? And, at the same time, not gonna lie, I just... honestly, part of why I love Thayet so much is that she is a WOC. Obviously, there are a lot of problems inherent in Tammy’s portrayal of both Sarain and Thayet in SOTL, but at the end of the day being K’mir is an important part of her identity and it would be... not great if she were to disappear from the narrative to have a marriage between two Anglos. That is definitely a personal thing and not a bashing on A/J. I would, though, cheerfully read a fic in which Alanna’s Queen of Tortall and Thayet stars in her own parallel narrative in Sarain. ETA: Also, forgot to ask what you meant by “Tortallans are able or willing to tolerate in their rulers or public figures is essentially arbitrary and varies by story, depending on the circumstances”. (Legitimately curious. Admittedly, I don’t read Tortall all that closely, so I’d be keen to hear your thoughts!) |
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oskarshai
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Post by oskarshai on Jul 25, 2021 12:57:27 GMT 10
Oh, yeah, that’s understandable. I’m approaching it more from a “What’s best (or better) for Tortall at this point in time?” I would definitely be interested in seeing Queen Alanna in fic, successful or otherwise. I couldn’t write that, but I’d love to read it. I would be fascinated by a fic in which Alanna gets to that point of calm through trial by fire. I, like others, read her by LR as essentially an adventurer. There is something ‘heroic’ in her that would rebel at settling down; and I don’t know what it would take to tame that Lioness part of her into something more... well, political. She responds best to danger, unpredictability, even war. She thrives on it. How would that work — or not work — for Tortall? Yeah, same hat, basically. I just find it a compelling idea. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, kind of like how I have a similar hangup about Jon ultimately picking a character who's much more feminine than Alanna. I do think it's fantastic that Thayet is a WOC (although I kind of wish more fanartists/fancasters remembered that fact about her, lol), I think her complicated relationship with her mixed heritage is probably one of my favorite things about her character, and I agree, I certainly don't like the idea of her being pushed out of the story for the sake of focusing on the white characters. Small and tangential aside bc I was just thinking this as I was typing, it's funny how complex things can start to get when conversations about rep start coinciding with conversations about ships. Because like even though shipping is not really about rep, our feelings about it and the way we engage with a ship or a character can still be very representative of our own experiences and feelings and what we value, and very personal in a way that kind of takes it beyond just being a hobby. It's cool, and I was just thinking how nice it is that everyone takes their own thing away from it and that it's personal enough that not everybody agrees. Oh - essentially all I meant is that what Tortallans are willing to tolerate is up to the writer, and we do see a certain amount of drift on that topic from book to book depending on how significant the Tortallan political landscape is to the story and what it is that story is trying to say. E.g., in Immortals we see very little of the conservative side of Tortall politics and almost everything about the atmosphere of the capital and the Palace feels very progressive, because it's (broadly speaking) a story about Daine finding her place and accumulating a found family among a group of very quirky, unconventional people who do almost nothing the way she initially expects. Conversely, in POTS, characters such as Jon and Thayet feel much more distinctly centrist (to the point that Kel dislikes Jonathan for the majority of the story because his actions make her think he's a conservative), because the existence of a conservative voice in Tortall is more central to the story and so we see more of the king and queen and other politicians and public figures having to compromise substantially with dissidents in order to maintain the stability of their reign. They're both canon, but the sense in each case of "what Tortallans would tolerate" is pretty different. |
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Post by mistrali on Jul 25, 2021 15:58:16 GMT 10
Oh, yeah, that’s understandable. I’m approaching it more from a “What’s best (or better) for Tortall at this point in time?” I would definitely be interested in seeing Queen Alanna in fic, successful or otherwise. I couldn’t write that, but I’d love to read it. I would be fascinated by a fic in which Alanna gets to that point of calm through trial by fire. I, like others, read her by LR as essentially an adventurer. There is something ‘heroic’ in her that would rebel at settling down; and I don’t know what it would take to tame that Lioness part of her into something more... well, political. She responds best to danger, unpredictability, even war. She thrives on it. How would that work — or not work — for Tortall? Yeah, same hat, basically. I just find it a compelling idea. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, kind of like how I have a similar hangup about Jon ultimately picking a character who's much more feminine than Alanna. I do think it's fantastic that Thayet is a WOC (although I kind of wish more fanartists/fancasters remembered that fact about her, lol), I think her complicated relationship with her mixed heritage is probably one of my favorite things about her character, and I agree, I certainly don't like the idea of her being pushed out of the story for the sake of focusing on the white characters. Small and tangential aside bc I was just thinking this as I was typing, it's funny how complex things can start to get when conversations about rep start coinciding with conversations about ships. Because like even though shipping is not really about rep, our feelings about it and the way we engage with a ship or a character can still be very representative of our own experiences and feelings and what we value, and very personal in a way that kind of takes it beyond just being a hobby. It's cool, and I was just thinking how nice it is that everyone takes their own thing away from it and that it's personal enough that not everybody agrees. Oh - essentially all I meant is that what Tortallans are willing to tolerate is up to the writer, and we do see a certain amount of drift on that topic from book to book depending on how significant the Tortallan political landscape is to the story and what it is that story is trying to say. E.g., in Immortals we see very little of the conservative side of Tortall politics and almost everything about the atmosphere of the capital and the Palace feels very progressive, because it's (broadly speaking) a story about Daine finding her place and accumulating a found family among a group of very quirky, unconventional people who do almost nothing the way she initially expects. Conversely, in POTS, characters such as Jon and Thayet feel much more distinctly centrist (to the point that Kel dislikes Jonathan for the majority of the story because his actions make her think he's a conservative), because the existence of a conservative voice in Tortall is more central to the story and so we see more of the king and queen and other politicians and public figures having to compromise substantially with dissidents in order to maintain the stability of their reign. They're both canon, but the sense in each case of "what Tortallans would tolerate" is pretty different. Oh - yes, you’re right, the perspective does shift from character to character. Which, as you say, makes sense because we get such a scope of characters. For Thayet, in LR, Tortall represents a paradise. Which I have issues with in and of itself, especially given that Sarain disappears from canon after LR. It’s the same problem you have with J/T, because the end of LR wrapped up so neatly. It wasn’t the right time and place, because things could’ve gone drastically wrong. But still, I would have loved to see how Thayet and Buri would have survived had she elected to overthrow zhir Anduo and try to reclaim the Saren throne instead of going to Tortall (ignoring the ‘Women can’t hold the Saren throne’ clause). That would’ve been a tangled narrative in itself and would’ve given Tammy a non-white, non-Tortallan heroine and a non-Tortall setting. (I’m not counting Daine because all we have for her skin colour is word of god, and she becomes pretty functionally Tortallan in her series anyway. |
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Post by devilinthedetails on Jul 27, 2021 5:48:15 GMT 10
oskarshai, I totally understand you not being a fan of the thought process of "character X could never adapt to or excel in situation Y." After all, a lot of great stories come from characters being placed in situations where the reader wouldn't necessarily expect them to succeed or adapt, and readers can get real satisfaction from watching the character learn how to adapt or even triumph in a situation to which the character might seem ill-equipped to deal. So there actually could be a story there with Alanna having to learn how to be a queen and maybe finding a way to succeed with that when the readers and the realm expect her to fail. And in life I do believe that humans have the capacity to adapt and excel in more situations than they would necessarily believe or expect, and in many ways, it is how we overcome challenges and unexpected difficulties that define us, so I probably shouldn't adhere too rigidly to any "character X could never adapt in situation y" philosophy as it is contrary to my real life beliefs. So that is a good point. So, an Alanna that learns how to be calmer and more diplomatic could be interesting to see. I am wondering if maybe the reason why I am a bit nervous about Jon and Alanna marrying and Alanna being in a position where she has to be queen is that I think she would have to make big changes to her personality in terms of being more diplomatic and start filling more of the social roles expected of a lady/queen in order to be a good queen, and 1) I'm not sure if she would be happy in a marriage where she had to make those changes, and 2) I'm not sure it would really be fair for Jon to ask or expect her to make those changes. My parents are divorced and had a marriage that kind of turned into a disaster, so maybe that is why I'm in the "never marry anyone who expects you to make massive changes in your personality or expects you to sacrifice major things you want to do in life" as well as the "never marry anybody with the expectation that they will make major changes to their personality or sacrifice big life goals for you" because I think that just ends in misery for both sides. Since often people don't change major facets of their personality, nor is it really necessarily fair to expect them to do that. Likewise, if people do end up sacrificing major dreams of theirs for the sake of a marriage (and historically it's mostly been women asked to do that), I think that can easily lead to resentment or depression. So I probably project a lot of my own ideas of what makes a good, successful, and fair marriage onto the Jon/Alanna ship whether or not I should do that. I understand you reading Jon and Alanna's relationship as queer because of Alanna's genderfluidity, and I can definitely understand how it would make you feel not great about the idea of Jon needing a queen capable of performing femininity at any time or permanently. I would tend to blame a lot of that on Tortallan society for seeming to have relatively rigid gender roles and then on the politics that make a king or crown prince's marriage an affair of state more than just a question of love but I get why you would see that as something that Jon needs to work through in order to make a Jon/Alanna relationship work. And I would actually agree with you that what Tortallans are willing to tolerate in their rulers and public figures can be aribitrary, depending a lot on the book and the series. For example, arranged marriages seem much more of a thing among Kel's peers (Roald, Jon's son, and Cleon both have arranged marriages) than in Alanna's day (and she is friends with Jon and Gary, who are the heirs of the two most powerful men in the realm). Speaking of arranged marriages, I kind of assign some blame to Roald (Jon's father) and Lianne for not arranging one for Jon when he was younger. It's like they don't really start thinking about his marriage prospects until he is a grown man and that really is much too late. It actually is kind of astounding to me that they have one son and don't seem to start thinking about whom he should marry before Roger dies. They should've been starting to think about his marriage prospects and negotiating potential betrothals when Jon was much younger than that. Jon arranging a marriage for his heir makes a lot more sense to me than Lianne and Roald just kind of leaving it to the last minute and hoping for the best. I feel like that is Jon learning from the mistakes of his own parents and being a bit more pragmatic about matters of dynastic succession. So, in a way, I guess I think the Tortall of Alanna's time should have more arranged marriages like I would expect in a quasi-medieval society especially among royalty and high nobility. But then I am a history buff so I have a bias for making things more consistent with history.
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oskarshai
Message Runner
Justice for Mammoth
Posts: 47
Gender: Other
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Post by oskarshai on Jul 28, 2021 11:54:18 GMT 10
I am wondering if maybe the reason why I am a bit nervous about Jon and Alanna marrying and Alanna being in a position where she has to be queen is that I think she would have to make big changes to her personality in terms of being more diplomatic and start filling more of the social roles expected of a lady/queen in order to be a good queen, and 1) I'm not sure if she would be happy in a marriage where she had to make those changes, and 2) I'm not sure it would really be fair for Jon to ask or expect her to make those changes. My parents are divorced and had a marriage that kind of turned into a disaster, so maybe that is why I'm in the "never marry anyone who expects you to make massive changes in your personality or expects you to sacrifice major things you want to do in life" as well as the "never marry anybody with the expectation that they will make major changes to their personality or sacrifice big life goals for you" because I think that just ends in misery for both sides. Since often people don't change major facets of their personality, nor is it really necessarily fair to expect them to do that. Likewise, if people do end up sacrificing major dreams of theirs for the sake of a marriage (and historically it's mostly been women asked to do that), I think that can easily lead to resentment or depression. So I probably project a lot of my own ideas of what makes a good, successful, and fair marriage onto the Jon/Alanna ship whether or not I should do that. Yeah, I don't like that dynamic (one person changing their personality for the other) either, and I think that's probably why Jon and Alanna's breakup in WWRLAM feels organic and believable to me despite the fact that I like them for an endgame ship. I guess the way I'd write it just feels different from that in my brain. But yeah, I definitely see what you mean. You're right, although if it were a situation that was framed more clearly as "I want to marry a visibly queer/gnc person but my position dictates that I can't" versus "my tastes will conveniently change so that I prefer to marry a cis/cis passing person anyway and see they were a better choice all along, & the whole matter becomes a non-issue" I might feel better about it. Idk if I'm making sense, but anyways. |
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