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Post by devilinthedetails on Dec 28, 2020 15:51:27 GMT 10
I thought it might be cool for us to have a thread where people could share some of their controversial or unpopular Tortallan opinions.
Some of my unpopular or controversial opinions are:
-I always understood why Jon put Kel on probation and so I never really hated him for it (even though I understood why Kel had trouble respecting and trusting him after that).
-I prefer adult Jon to young Jon (especially young Jon during In the Hand of the Goddess and Woman Who Rides Like a Man where he gets on my nerves half the time) and I like him best when he is doing things I'd expect a king to do like arrange political marriages for his children.
-Roald Jon's father is an underrated king and not as weak as he is often perceived. His desire for peaceful, diplomatic solutions is generally admirable. He would've had a lot on his plate establishing effective diplomatic relationships with surrounding nations after his father's conquests.
-Jon is fairly weak at political strategy and so has to rely more on his personal charm and charisma to lead.
-Jon and Thayet's education reforms are over-ambitious and don't make much sense in a feudal society.
-Jon and Thayet often feel like modern progressives who are anachronistic in their own quasi-medieval society.
-I think Jon Roald's son will be a more effective ruler than Jon and that people underestimate him at their own peril.
-Carthak is a more advanced civilization by most measures than Tortall, and it would be Tortall trying to frantically catch up to Carthak, not Carthak trying to copy Tortall's progressive reforms and whatnot.
-I think the civil war in the Beka Cooper books shouldn't have focused on slavery but on a succession dispute as is more common for medieval civil wars.
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mageprincess
Squire
books, books books!!!
Posts: 1,133
Gender: Female
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Post by mageprincess on Jan 2, 2021 20:48:10 GMT 10
I agree about preferring adult Jon to teenage/early 20's Jon. Adolescent Jon was an a-hole 99% of the time - especially in WWRLAM. Alanna was spot on when she said she'd make a terrible Queen, she definitely doesn't have the temperament for it. And that is absolutely something to consider when being proposed to by the Crown Prince, if you can call trying to walk all over her a proposal.
I know this opinion is shared by some here, but Daine and Numair's age gap makes me a little bit uncomfortable. I know it wasn't uncommon in medieval society for girls to marry much older men, but as an adult it strikes me as creepy. I am now only slightly older than Numair was when he confessed his love to a sixteen year old. Its a terrifying thought. I loved them as a kid, and I do like them as a couple generally, I just wish the age gap wasn't so significant.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Jan 3, 2021 12:04:45 GMT 10
mageprincess , yeah, I think Jon was definitely at his worst for me in Woman Who Rides Like a Man and you're right that Alanna would probably have made a terrible queen given her explosive temperament and impatience with all things diplomatic and political. That factor is certainly something Jon should've considered before proposing to her. It was really a relief for me to get to Lioness Rampant and find that I could sympathize much more with Jon. Somehow him undergoing the trauma of losing both his mother and father in such quick succession made him mature as a character and helped me understand him better. I think the conversation in Lioness Rampant with Gary about the loss of his parents and the struggle of ruling made Jon click as a character for me in a way that didn't happen in Woman Who Rides Like a Man or In the Hand of the Goddess. I do like young Jon for the most part in Alanna: The First Adventure even though especially with Ralon he does have some moments that become more like bullying to me the older I get, but he also has some great moments for me like his reaction to Alanna being a girl. I really do love the friendship between Alanna and Jon throughout the books, but as a romantic pairing they don't work for me in any long term way. So I really am grateful that Tammy decided they shouldn't be together romantically on a permanent basis and still showed how they could remain friends long term despite the breakup. Basically, adult Jon is a neat character with different facets to his personality that I enjoy exploring, but young Jon especially in the middle two Alanna books can absolutely get on my nerves. I'm with you in that the age gap between Daine and Numair makes me uncomfortable. As does the fact that they were once teacher and student. One of my "squicks" in romantic pairings is former teacher and student relationships. And the age gap does nag at me because I am not even sure that Tortall logically speaking should have women marrying as young as they do given things like the existence of reasonably reliable birth control in the protective amulets (access to birth control tends to both raise the average age of women marrying and the age of bearing a first child) and magical healing that seems to be much better than medieval "medicine" (which to me should increase life expectancy, and make earlier marriage less common). So women marrying young in Tortall has always felt a bit like a world building quirk that wasn't necessary to me given that magical improvements in birth control and in overall healing/medicine were made by Tammy, so the average age of marriage for women could definitely have been lifted to better align with that. So, yeah, I'm not a fan of the age gap between Daine and Numair. Their relationship works best for me when I don't have to think about the age gap. Such as in the POTS books, where my mind mentally ages Daine up quite a bit to better match Numair.
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Post by Lady Olive of Masbolle on Mar 27, 2021 6:05:10 GMT 10
Oooo yes I like this thread idea! I have been wanting to talk to someone who would understand about something that has always bothered me in Squire. But first, I personally would imagine most readers understood Jon's decision to agree to Wyldon's probation for Kel, but also understand Kel's frustration and dislike toward him for it. But who knows.
I also can see why you'd feel Jon and Thayet are too progressive for the time, but I feel it fits with the books since one of the main overall themes is justice and fairness and this reality-adjacent.
I also TOTALLY agree that Roald was a much better king than he is often given credit for.
I apologize that this is less of a critique of Tortall, and more about the books in general, so please excuse me if this deviates from your intentions for the thread. My perhaps unpopular or controversial opinion formulated after re-reading Alanna and Daine (read POTS many times, and it was my intro to Tammy many years ago) is that especially Song of the Lioness is very clunky in writing, characters and plot. I think much of it would be different if she had been at the writing level she was by the time she wrote POTS. Rereading it as an adult, I find myself switching things around in my mind that I know she would have done and said differently, and I am honestly okay with doing that for myself.
Something that REALLY bothers me in Squire is the lack of time taken for us to see Kel's group process Joren's death together. Joren is a very important character, deeply relevant to both Kel's development as a literary character, and her time spent in training at the palace. After his death in the Chamber, we do not get to see any sort of conversation with the study group, and not even a glimpse into Kel's mind about this after the scene with Joren's father concludes. The only real mention of it later on is in reference to anxiety at Midwinter because "nobody had forgotten about Joren." I feel this is very rushed and we should have been able to process with at the very least Kel and Neal, preferably with more of her crew. (Edit: I just skimmed your thoughts in the POTS revisit, and I see you thought Joren should have stayed alive then Kel could defeat him later! Fascinating, I honestly love it. I need to ponder further.)
Woo! I just joined this forum, very excited to look through everything here!
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Post by devilinthedetails on Mar 27, 2021 8:45:06 GMT 10
Lady Olive of Masbolle Welcome to the site! I hope you enjoy your time around here:D Your comment about writing being clunkier in Song of the Lioness as compared to Protector of the Small is definitely in line with my intention for the thread, so no worries. I think you have a good point about how much of Song of the Lioness might have been different if Tammy was at the same writing level as she was in Protector of the Small quartet (which is my favorite of the Tortall series). It sounds strange to say but I never actually thought about how we never see Kel's group collectively process Joren's death. Now that you mention it, though, I agree that it would have been meaningful to have them sort of collectively dealing with all the implications of Joren's death.
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Post by Lady Olive of Masbolle on Mar 27, 2021 9:47:52 GMT 10
Woohoo! Hello! Oh lovely, it is my favorite as well! I plan on gushing about Kel a bit in a little post introducing myself to the forum later, once I am off work. Perhaps I will also write that scene, at some point haha. Lovely to meet ya!
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