Least favourite?

[Rosie]

What is your least favourite plot point? Is there something you feel didn't get resolved in quite the right way? Would you have done something differently?

For me:

1. Tunstall. I... would have done a lot differently. I would probably have made Farmer the villain. I would have alluded to Tunstall being a jerk beforehand. It all felt really rushed, and whilst it was surprising (sort of - I read the end first so that I could set up a bunch of posts on this forum), I don't think it worked.

2. Sarai. I don't understand why she's left out of the whole conspiracy - if they want her to rule a kingdom, surely she should have been in on it? I know there's an argument about her temperament, but I just don't buy it. She feels isolated, and that leads to her feeling fearful that somebody's going to actually make her marry a child, and so she runs because she doesn't think anybody has her back. Except Zaimid. He's the good egg here. Also, the white saviour storyline with Aly is obviously inappropriate and she takes much too big a role in the raka rebellion.

3. Raoul being a jerk to Jon in Squire. It bothers me that we're supposed to celebrate his insubordination.

[devilinthedetails]

Another great question, Rosie. I agree that Tunstall's betrayal rings false to me, maybe because his motivation just doesn't feel as convincing as it needs to be for me to accept one of my favorite characters as a traitor. I think that Tammy is not so deft at writing these betrayals, which will tie into one of my own least favorite plot points.

I also agree about Sarai. I love Sarai's character in Trickster's Choice especially, and I think she should have been told about the conspiracy. If she had knowledge of the conspiracy, I think her actions would have been different in Trickster's Queen, so I'm always kind of frustrated with the conspiracy for not confiding in her. With what she knows, no wonder she flees with Zaimid.

The white savior dynamic with Aly always disturbs me. I get that Tammy wanted to write a series about Alanna's daughter, but I think it would have been a lot better if Aly was just a part that helped out with a rebellion rather than a leader. The white savior aspect you mentioned factors into one of my own least favorite bits.

It did irk me in Squire how disrespectful about the whole progress Raoul acted. As an introvert, I one hundred percent sympathize about not liking large parties and banquets, but sometimes we are obligated to attend social events even if we don't enjoy them. I think there are absolutely understandable political reasons why Jon wants Raoul in attendance at these events and that Raoul shouldn't have thrown his little tantrums. I love Raoul as a character and I do understand that he hates banquets, but at times in Squire I believe he needed to act a bit more like a grown-up.

Now to list some of my least favorite things:

1. Alex's motivations for being involved in Roger's plot in Lioness Rampant never really were satisfactory or anything other than vague to me. During In the Hand of the Goddess, he seems bewitched in some way by Roger (which makes sense, but implies he doesn't have that much control or in my opinion culpability) but in Lioness Rampant he seems to just be unable to cope with the idea that Alanna might be the best. That just doesn't strike me as a particularly compelling explanation for treason unless Alex is more deranged than much of his other characterization leads me to believe. I get Alex is ambitious, but there is a far cry between ambition and high treason. I find Alex an intriguing character in part because there is so much mystery around his choice to side with Roger in Lioness Rampant.

2. The whole Jon as Voice idea rubs me the wrong way. It has the white savior vibe that Rosie talked about with Aly. I would have preferred Jon earning the respect of the Bazhir and finding a way to peacefully integrate them into the realm that didn't involve him becoming the Voice. Jon does a lot of things I give him credit for like asking Ali Mukhtab for a history of the Bazhir during the first Alanna book, but I am not convinced that him becoming Voice was truly necessary and it always makes me a little uncomfortable.

3. Thom awakening Roger from the dead never worked for me. Thom is so paranoid about Roger in the first Alanna book that I can never believe that he would raise Roger from the dead. I would believe that he would raise someone else (maybe his mother or something) from the dead, but Delia's prodding seemed like it wouldn't be enough to overcome his paranoia no matter how prideful Thom is. I mean, he can still prove his power by raising anyone that isn't Roger. I admit that I also am not a big fan of resurrections in stories. Let the dead stay dead in general is my view.

4. Joren dying in the Ordeal always felt like a deus ex machina to me. I would have preferred Kel to be more involved in his destruction, and I think he should have had to see her become a knight.

5. Lalasa being forced by Kel to learn how to fight. I loved seeing Lalasa grow from a timid maid to a confident businesswoman, but I wish that learning how to fight had never been part of her transformation. She can still be a strong woman without learning how to fight, teaching her how to fight reminds me too much of the assault advice that women get where if we don't learn how to defend ourselves we are to blame for whatever befalls us (advice I wholeheartedly disagree with), and her learning to fight didn't really impact the plot since she still gets kidnapped at the end of the book anyway. To me, we got some unpleasant implications for no real reason, which is a shame since I love most of what Tammy did with Lalasa's character. I just wish she had never been made to learn how to fight. Kel should have just respected her wishes with that.

6. The attitude toward hazing bugs me as someone who faced bullying. If you physically fight against bullying in the real world you can easily find yourself suspended in the US (which can really hurt your ability to get into the colleges you want to down the line)so violence is a pretty poor answer to being bullied and the overall tone that you shouldn't tell adults in authority about bullying annoys me. We are supposed to admire Kel and Alanna for not admitting to being bullied, but kids who are afraid to come forward about bullying don't need that idea reinforced. Kids need to be encouraged to come forward about bullying. Kids shouldn't feel that coming forward about bullying makes them weak when it actually makes them strong. Staying silent in the face of bullying should not be the ideal. Violence isn't the answer, and neither is stoic silence. I wish Tammy dealt with hazing in a way that made that clearer to readers.

Those are my main issues. I will get off my soapbox now...

[westernsunset]

Oof yes the Jon as the Voice thing is weird. I don’t really understand how that would even work. As I understand it, the voice has to commune with the tribes every night. How does Jon have time for that? He’s literally the king of the entire realm, he’s going to miss a night or two! How does he fit it in his schedule? (I’m letting my admin assistant brain show here, the idea of mangaging Jon’s schedule as King and the Voice seems like Too Much)

I will say, I didn’t mind Raoul’s insubordination in Squire but I feel Raoul can do no wrong. And I liked seeing that Jon’s friends can still make their thoughts known around him. I think it’s important for leaders to be grounded and having people like Raoul and Alanna who speak their minds can be really helpful.

Now onto the plot points I didn’t like:

1. Ok, I like the Daine and Numair relationship, truly. But the age gap is big. And unnecessary! I feel like the weird age gap could’ve been avoided with not much change to the story so I’d feel a little less weird about it. But who am I to tell Tamora Pierce how to write?

2. I’m in the midst of an Emelan reread and. Eh. The second quarter of books where they all take students? Sometimes those are great, sometimes they feel really forced. (Briar’s student is awesome, Daja’s felt really unnecessary.)

[devilinthedetails]

Thank you for bringing up Daine and Numair's relationship, westernsunset. I thought their relationship was sweet in the POTS series but it made me uncomfortable in the end of the Immortals quartet which makes me think that it isn't so much the age gap per say that puts me off their relationship in Immortals but the fact that I still get a very student and teacher vibe from their relationship while the romance is ongoing. That teacher and student aspect was also a reason why Jon and Alanna never quite clicked for me. I just think there is a power imbalance and some troubling real world implications that I can't get past when I read a student and teacher relationship, so I was really glad that Kel and Raoul's relationship remained father and daughter like and never became romantic. (No offense in this is intended to people who enjoyed the Daine and Numair romance in Immortals or the Alanna and Jon one in Song of the Lioness; these are just my own issues that I can't get past but I am happy for others if they can.)

[westernsunset]

devilinthedetails, the power imbalance is a REALLY good point. There's nothing wrong with an age gap in relationships, but the teacher/student thing is a little weird. and yes, anytime I see Kel/Raoul romance fic I stay away. Nothing against it, just not my thing.

[devilinthedetails]

May 29, 2018 9:23:35 GMT 10 westernsunset said:

devilinthedetails, the power imbalance is a REALLY good point. There's nothing wrong with an age gap in relationships, but the teacher/student thing is a little weird. and yes, anytime I see Kel/Raoul romance fic I stay away. Nothing against it, just not my thing.

Yeah, age gaps don't necessarily make me uncomfortable, but potential power imbalances and teacher/student relationships do. I don't have a problem with other people enjoying to read or write about those kind of relationships, but they just aren't my cup of tea.

[emberly]

Well I'm a bit late to the party but here I am. I agree with devilinthedetails over Thom awakening Roger. Thom is my favourite character by far which I know is a little odd. I've always seen Thom as super paranoid, to the point where I still have a hard time seeing his reasoning behind raising Roger. I just don't think he could have been convinced to it. Its to the point where I headcanon he was compelled to do it before Roger died, and the others triggered that compulsion - just to explain his reasoning.

I actually use a similar headcanon to explain Alex's turn. A mix of years of magic and abuse, because I can't picture another logical reason.

I didn't like any of the romance in Kel's books. I'm not a fan of romance in general but I really don't like her whole thing with Cleon (that's preference thohgh)

Moreover, as somebody who like many girls has had a problem with older men being interested, Numair and Daine still bothers me. I get that it's the time but I hate how it feel like its normalizing that kind of power imbalance.

[devilinthedetails]

Jul 7, 2018 4:43:33 GMT 10 emberly said:

Well I'm a bit late to the party but here I am. I agree with devilinthedetails over Thom awakening Roger. Thom is my favourite character by far which I know is a little odd. I've always seen Thom as super paranoid, to the point where I still have a hard time seeing his reasoning behind raising Roger. I just don't think he could have been convinced to it. Its to the point where I headcanon he was compelled to do it before Roger died, and the others triggered that compulsion - just to explain his reasoning.

I actually use a similar headcanon to explain Alex's turn. A mix of years of magic and abuse, because I can't picture another logical reason.

I didn't like any of the romance in Kel's books. I'm not a fan of romance in general but I really don't like her whole thing with Cleon (that's preference thohgh)

Moreover, as somebody who like many girls has had a problem with older men being interested, Numair and Daine still bothers me. I get that it's the time but I hate how it feel like its normalizing that kind of power imbalance.

I don't think it's weird that Thom was your favorite character. Early in the first Alanna book, I related to him more than Alanna in some ways, since he was more of a reader like me and seemed very studious more than adventurous or interested in fighting. As a child, I definitely had more in common with a young Thom than a young Alanna. I agree that Thom also struck me as super paranoid. In Alanna the First Adventure, he writes to Alanna in detail and in secrecy about his suspicions of Roger (and he's one of the few people we ever know for a fact are suspicious of Roger early on in the series) and he even describes the lengths he is going to go to "play dumb" as it were to trick any spies Roger might have into believing that he is weak and not worthy of notice. Maintaining a ruse like that is in some ways even more difficult than Alanna having to disguise her identity as a female so to go that far I think you have to be pretty paranoid (perhaps justifiably in the case of hiding from Roger) but if you go to that effort when you are merely suspicious of Roger, why would you then resurrect Roger after all your suspicions were confirmed? It just was really bizarre for me when Thom raised Alanna's nemesis from the dead. I could understand Thom wanting to prove he was the most powerful wizard by raising somebody, but doing it to Roger is very hard to understand the motivation behind (even if I go beyond the text and possibly assume that Thom might have developed an unhealthy interest in death because of his mother's death--in other words, nursed a desire to bring the dead back to life since he lost his mother before he knew her). Basically, I think that is one area where the story suffered when it was transformed from a single adult volume into a quartet for young adults. Thom's motivations become much cloudier, and for me, not in a good way.

I think Alex's motivations suffer a similar fate to Thom's in perhaps being a sacrifice to space (and maybe content) restrictions for YA literature at the time the quartet was published. Some combination of magic and abuse from Roger seem to be at work as you say but I think the hints we see in the text need to be developed further and be more consistent with themselves (I find Alex's depiction in the second Alanna book pretty incompatible with the portrayal of him in the fourth book, so those are the kind of differences I would've wanted explored in more depth).

I understand not liking Kel's relationship with Cleon. I think it amused me for the most part since I never really had the feeling that it would last, but I could understand not liking the flowery names he calls her and stuff.

I absolutely understand being bothered by Numair and Daine's relationship. In the Immortals quartet, I was uncomfortable with it because for the most part until the romance begins, we see Numair and Daine relating as teacher and student (more so than we see a couple like Jon and Alanna, who primarily relate as friends before their romance starts even when Jon is ostensibly in a mentor position over Alanna as her knightmaster). I also found Numair a bit creepily protective of Daine in Emperor Mage when it came to interactions with Kaddar, which at that point was really off-putting to me, because he had no right to be jealous about Daine when he wasn't even in a romantic relationship with her yet. Basically, yeah, I'm with you in not liking the power imbalance, and I have a bit of a problem just writing it off as appropriate for the time period (not that you were attempting to do that) since Tammy is willing to insert much more advanced medical care (from treating illnesses to birth control) and a social/legal system that seems to allow for a pretty modern type of divorce that we wouldn't see in our world in the medieval era, so it's like, if she's willing to buck the trend in those areas, I'd wish she'd buck the trend in not having a heroine in a relationship with a substantial power imbalance, or if the power imbalance has to be there, show its flaws or dangers rather than ignoring it or glamorizing it. I guess to myself I just can't rationalize it as it's just the time.