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Post by Lisa on Mar 30, 2009 0:17:37 GMT 10
I don't think it would come as a surprise to anyone who knows me that I'm vehemently pro-choice when it comes to how I vote.
Now, I also believe that life begins at conception - but I respect the wishes of those who would disagree. I don't know if I would ever have an abortion, and I likely never will since I can't have kids at all.
However, there's a huge debate in the pro-choice/anti-choice world in the US regarding underage abortion.
Many people in the right wing and pro-life movements want to create legislature that states that a minor must have parental consent before an abortion can be performed.
What do you think of this?
Here's my concern: it's so hard to get a person to admit she was raped in the first place. How is a teenager supposed to admit to her parents that she was date-raped and needs an abortion. (since most pro-lifers would agree that abortions for rape-victims are acceptable, despite the moral dilemma of life still being ended.)
And how about a child who's coerced into sex by her step-brother or stepfather or - gods forbid - biological relatives? In many cases, the mother does not believe her daughter when she's told that her significant other made a pass at a child. How is a frightened young girl supposed to get the parental consent if the parent is pro-life and thinks it's the result of consentual underage sex that the girl is hiding?
I guess ultimately my stance is that even if only one in ten girls has a case of questionable conception and would be too frightened to attempt to get a parent's legal consent, I cannot in good conscience support this kind of law.
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Post by ivymutant on Mar 30, 2009 0:34:48 GMT 10
If there are circumstances, such as rape, abuse (incestual or by another ault, authority figure, step parent, teacher etc), then I agree with abortion for underage girls. What if the law was that an adult (person aged 18+, or even 21+, or 25+) who has close contact with the child signed the form in lieu of the parent, if they believed, or could show the parent refused to believe their child had been raped/abused, and they could show some evidence that the sex was non consental. This adult could be a relative, such as aunt, or grandparent, or a professional whom the child trusted, a doctor, school consellor, nurse at a local sex clinic, police officer....someone they would have approached as they didn't feel they could approach their parent.
I wouldn't be fully against that law, if there was a clause such as that in place, and knowledge of this was made to the girls themselves. We have lessons over here (called several things, Personal Social Education/Personal Social Health Education/Personal Development Programme) which 'filled in the gaps' and made us aware of things like our rights as young people/teenagers/young adults, some info about politics and voting, information about contraception (the non science-y sexual education stuff) and I dunno if there is an equivilent over there, but this would where they'd get that info from.
I'm personally pro-choice, especially in cases of rape, and health issues, whether it is mother or child or both who would be affected. Otherwise, I may not agree with abortion, I may never want one, but if someone truely wants to get rid of a baby, and want to have an abortion, that is their choice to make, but should be a last resort, not just, "oops, got pregnant after a one night stand" kinda deal.
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Post by iridescentdaisies on Mar 30, 2009 0:53:24 GMT 10
Lisa basically explained my main concerns with such legislation.
The laws that limit abortion access form minors make me feel sick to my stomach. I'm inclined to believe that underage girls/women (I say girls because a child menstruating does not a woman make, in my opinion) are more likely to need safe, legal, and easy access to abortion. There are also more potential obstacles, I think, to a minor obtaining an abortion without anything legal obstructing her.
In addition to this, I worry about a parent being allowed to prevent an abortion for a girl who needs one for medical reasons. There's perhaps a slim chance of this happening but if there's a chance, that's enough for me.
This is presuming a minor would have someone she could trust, though.
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Post by Lindsay on Mar 30, 2009 6:27:39 GMT 10
[I'm actually writing more about the parental notification propositions rather than actual restriction for minors, because it's more of an issue for me since it's been on California's ballot for the last few elections and garnered a surprising amount of votes last election. But the logic and arguments are still pretty much the same.]
When I was younger, I thought that it was ridiculous that a girl could get an abortion without her parents knowing anything about it. After all, it *is* a health procedure, and a major one at that. I can't even get my cavities filled without parental permission, but I'd be allowed to go and get an abortion? That made no sense to me.
Things have changed for me now, obviously. I came to realize the dangerous situation some girls are put in if they become pregnant-- I remember one girl being beaten and actually losing the baby after telling her parents she was pregnant, and another pregnant girl was killed after being force-fed bleach by her mother. Some parents out there are nuts, and it wouldn't be safe for the girl to have to tell her parents that she's pregnant and getting an abortion.
Ultimately, I think the flaw in this law lies in the fact that a girl with a healthy, normal relationship with her parents would tell them to begin with. The law wouldn't matter to them, because their parents would be supportive of them, though likely disappointed with their actions and choices.
The girls with very unhealthy relationships with their parents are likely the ones who should not be telling them anything. It just wouldn't be safe for them.
The law should not be able to dictate the lives of the pregnant girls. A girl is medically emancipated when she becomes pregnant (in the United States). Her rights can't be simply taken away because parents feel like they have the right to know if their child is having an abortion. If a parent wants their child to tell them that they're having an abortion, a parent should open the lines of communication before an incident like this occurs and let their daughter know that they will stand by and support them no matter what. They can't hide behind the law and expect that to make their daughter keep them informed about her decisions.
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Post by boosette on Mar 30, 2009 6:43:43 GMT 10
A thousand times yes to the upthread discussion re: the young women seeking abortions without parental knowledge being unlikely to have
There's also the issue of young women whose parents would prevent their having abortions out of their own political ideology and without regard for their daughter's physical or mental health or future that worries me - teenaged mothers are at greater risk for living in poverty for the rest of their lives, and to see any young woman forced into that situation when she wants to abort breaks my heart.
Parental consent - and to a lesser extent, notification - don't help anyone. What they do do is take a young woman's bodily autonomy and reproductive freedom and hand it to someone other else, even if it is her parents. That's not something I can support in good conscience.
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Post by Lindsay on Mar 30, 2009 6:56:16 GMT 10
Ugh, yes. Those who propel this proposition forward pretend that it's for the girl's health and safety, but it's just another attempt to prevent minors from seeking abortions. I should have mentioned this, as this would hold true to someone like me. I'm not a minor any more more, but if I had gotten pregnant, say, a year ago? I have a healthy relationship with my mother. My Catholic mother. And by god she would have done all she could to prevent me from having an abortion.
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Rojo
Queen's Rider
There once was a girl who was told she could, and so she did.
Posts: 660
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Post by Rojo on Mar 30, 2009 10:14:44 GMT 10
I myself am pro-life. However, since I know abortions are here to stay and there is nothing I will be able to do to end them, I must agree that a minor does not need parental consent to have an abortion. To me, an abortion is a medical procedure, which is covered under various doctor-patient confidentiality acts and laws.
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Post by iridescentdaisies on Mar 30, 2009 14:12:11 GMT 10
Yep. Maybe I've read too many Richard Patterson North novels, but the possibility of this really worries me.
Also...bringing up class issues because I can't resist: there's always going to be a dichotomy between the availability of abortions based on class, education, and income lines. It may not always be 100% clear (you'll have poor girls who gain access and more affluent ones who don't) but generally speaking girls with more resources will have more resources.
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Post by boosette on Mar 30, 2009 14:38:21 GMT 10
Oh absolutely - this becomes even more readily apparent if we look back to pre-Roe v. Wade, where wealthy women would simply go overseas for a safe abortion while poor women were forced to get unsafe abortions, raise the resulting child or give the resulting child up for adoption. (Man, what I wouldn't give for a safe, easy, foolproof form of birth control that isn't, "don't have heterosexual sex". Which, well, sometimes abstinence doesn't work either.) |
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Post by Lindsay on Mar 30, 2009 14:42:44 GMT 10
I kind of support the idea of government funding of abortions for minors. A girl shouldn't be forced to continue a pregnancy because she can't afford to end it, and then consequentially won't be able to take care of the baby and would have to live off of welfare to take care of the baby.
Actually, that would be in support of government funding of abortions for minors or anyone who couldn't afford it. If someone's below a certain income level, they should be able to have access to abortion if that's what they want. My only qualm with that is it sounds dangerously like it could slip into eugenics, what with minorities making up most of the lower class that would fall into this income bracket.
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Post by iridescentdaisies on Mar 30, 2009 15:11:23 GMT 10
Hmm, that's in an interesting quandry. I suppose it's one of those things that the US health care system (for better or worse) makes difficult. The government could make abortions (or at least first trimester abortions) free for all, but you'd have to answer why just that specific procedure.
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Post by boosette on Mar 30, 2009 15:37:17 GMT 10
Which circles us back around to the question of nationalized health care (something I support that many, for whatever their reasons, don't). At this point I'd settle for "safe and legal" rather than "free abortions for all".
The morning after pill, though, should be available at all pharmacies OTC without restriction based on age or any other factor. (Did you know that you could get pregnant if you ovulate within three days of having sex? True fact.)
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Post by Lindsay on Mar 30, 2009 16:41:45 GMT 10
Makes sense-- doesn't sperm survive for up to 72 hours?
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Post by boosette on Mar 30, 2009 21:58:12 GMT 10
Give or take, yes.
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Mina
Rider Trainee
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Post by Mina on Mar 31, 2009 0:04:53 GMT 10
Again, if you want someone else to have an input, why not change the system.
In all cases of non-health reason abortion the pregnant girl/woman has to go and talk it through with a specially trained outsider. You cannot get the abortion here without talking with someone who has the training for it - and you can't do both on the same day.
Why am I so strongly for that? Because a lot of woman, especially young girls don't know their options, especially if the parents are part of the problem, in the way the relate to the pregnancy.
An outsider who can not only talk to you about the issue itself under - confidential clause- but also show up other options to keep the child (like we have housing and stipends for pregnant teens for example, where they can get away from the parents and the situation and have a chance to finish school)
And adults often do not know the kind of assistance they can get either.
The result of this session can not force you to keep the baby, but it gives the unborn and the mother-to-be the best possible chance to make the right decision for the future.
As crass at it may sound, look at statistics about teen pregnancies which is the real issue here - a high percentage comes from low social standing, even lower educational level and often broken homes - can you truly say those parents will make the best informed decision possible (not that any parent should be able to make this decision for their pregnant child).
Not to mention that a high percentage of the rape cases show a familiar person as the rapist - family member, family friend the like - can you truly put a minor into such a dangerous situation?
I don't think so.
I advocate for the possibility to give them outside adult help, but it should be from an institution like planned parenthood, pro familia or any other place that trains special councilors for this cases and it should be confidential and blame free, just to show them options and help them talk about it before they are forced into a decision.
Btw German health insurance pays for abortion out of health or rape reasons, - it also pays for pre- and post abortion check ups and complications due to the abortion.
If you decide to abort without health reasons or being the victim of a crime you might have to pay for the abortion itself (abortion in the first 3 months costs less than 1000 euro, usually about 500)
Persons without an income like teens have the option to file for the state to pay for it.
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Post by xxTunstall Chickxx on Apr 24, 2009 11:53:28 GMT 10
Aah, touchy subject this, though Canada, or where I live at least, people don;t really care as much as in other places. There are plenty of clinics and places to help you, and not many girls get kicked out by their families for aborting. Under-age abortions? Well, I think abortion should be an option for all ages. An option.
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opalgirl
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I also answer to Val.
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Post by opalgirl on Apr 24, 2009 15:10:22 GMT 10
Canadians care as much as our friends over the border, xxTunstallChickxx. Look into the cases of Dr. Henry Morgentaler, the doctor who fought to make abortion legal in this country. (There was a huge bit of drama when he was given the Order of Canada.)
Personal ancedote time - let me paint you a picture:
I'm from a part of the country (born and raised) that's seen better economic times - the Atlantic coast - and that's in circumstances very similar to nearby US states like Maine or New Hampshire or parts of Massachucetts.
I lived for most of my life with a relatively uneducated single mother, under a roof public assistance put over my head, after my parents' nasty divorce. I'm not proud, but it was what it was.
And, to make a somewhat frightening point? I graduated high school, class of '08. Out of my small graduating class (200-275), there were twelve girls who had either had babies that year or were pregnant on graduation day.
If I hadn't had a large extended family who lived very different lives and were all about helping me, I could be living a very different life right now.
A young girl from my kind of background, without helpful family members? Or reasonably comprehensive sex ed? (Which I got, surprisingly. I still have the small book with information about contraception and different types, why you should use it, how to respond to pressure againt using it, STDs and symptoms and helpful local phone numbers.)
I can see how she might find herself pregnant and alone, without proper knowledge. I've lived around girls and women in those situations (or worse) for a long time.
I have a personal feeling - ymmv, of course - that lawmakers and legislators tend to think that every family is 'ideal' and that every child has a proper relationship with the parent and, no, of course the parent won't try to inflict their personal bias/opinions on the child.
Right. It's certainly not the government's job to parent, but not every parent is ideal. I don't agree with age restrictions, but it *is* a slippery slope, as others have said.
My personal happy medium (unlikely to ever happen) would be if there was more information readily available to women who find themselves needing it. An unbiased, non-judgemental ear who could provide knowledge they might not have so *they* could make an informed choice. (I got lucky; I have an aunt who is like this.) I educated myself; not everyone in this kind of background can. If said information is available to the pregnant woman/girl, they can learn and take it back with them and maybe inform the others around them.
I vote pro-choice, since I don't believe it's up to me - or government - to decide what everyone else does with their bodies. Can't imagine myself ever having an abortion, but I don't believe it's something anyone does lightly.
And I'd find it heart-breaking to see a woman who *couldn't* look after a child in this kind of environment forced to keep it because of parental influence - or parents refusing to sign relevant paperwork. I know how hard it is to get out. A child just continues the cycle.
So I don't know how I feel about it, exactly.
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Post by xxTunstall Chickxx on Apr 26, 2009 7:12:22 GMT 10
Good point, I guess I stereotype. I live in a city at least who doesn't care, not as much as the others anyway, for that I am certain. It's a very 'open' city, with an open mind to different cultures, races, and opinion, religious beliefs and so on. I should have specified as much, my apologies.
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opalgirl
Sergeant
I also answer to Val.
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Post by opalgirl on Apr 26, 2009 7:14:00 GMT 10
s'okay. I just like passing on information. /geek.
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Andy
Message Runner
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Post by Andy on Apr 27, 2009 22:30:19 GMT 10
Yeah, I am also Canadian, but I went to an All-Girls Catholic school where we were given 'abstinence ed'. For real. Luckily, my parents were a pair of hippies who were like, "Have these condoms and birth control pills! Go forth into the world and have amazing safe sex!" This, of course, made me put of having sex for an unusually long time... because, ew, my parents told me to. Interestingly, my parents views on drugs had a similar effect on me.
To the topic at hand! I think that underaged girls are the people that need abortions most of all. More importantly, they need to be able to do it without their parents permission because not all parents are reasonable people.
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Post by boosette on Apr 27, 2009 22:35:07 GMT 10
Best birth control ever.
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Post by xxTunstall Chickxx on Apr 28, 2009 11:29:29 GMT 10
Haha, I have to admit that made me laugh. We had many, many people come to school to talk about this. We actually had a gay couple com in and talk about the G spot. It was... wow, let's not go there.
However, they have shown us images, old us things, brought in guest speakers, that have made many of us decide to postpone it for a while. There're so many things that could go wrong. One of them being with child at the age of what 16? 15? 17? While being in school anyway.
Should someone give up education, and ultimately having a well-paying job or a shot at university because someone, someone who doesn't even know them (this is launched at governments), has told them that they are not allowed to abort a baby they can't maintain? Should life be payed for life? Because ultimately, not everybody can afford a baby, and spend their entire life working to support a baby. A life for a life? Is that what it has to be down to?
And who tells men that they *have* to drop out as well to help with a baby if the mother can't afford it? Technically, 'it's the right thing to do' and they have to pay some of the expenses, but they can still live their life, why can't the women pass off the baby to the men after a while and pay for half the expenses without being frowned upon by everybody?
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Post by boosette on Apr 28, 2009 11:50:29 GMT 10
Because we still live in a sucky, sexist society that's backsliding on gender equality issues.
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Post by xxTunstall Chickxx on Apr 29, 2009 12:08:42 GMT 10
Amen to that. Sadly.
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Post by kaossparrow on Apr 30, 2009 10:39:14 GMT 10
I am a minor, and not menstruating yet. For all that, I am definitely pro-choice. There should be no pressure for a woman to keep a child she cannot care for, physically or emotionally. I have seen pictures of abortion clinics mobbed with pro-life people, and no one should feel ashamed about doing what they know is right for themselves and their unborn child. I agree that parental consent should not be necessary. My family is not-very-observant Jewish, and tolerant, but I know that my family isn't necessarily a standard model. If a girl didn't know anyone to turn to, she shouldn't have to be in emotional pain from disapproving reactions. Adoption can be much more traumatic than abortion- see shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/03/breaking-silence-on-living-pro-lifers.html. |
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Post by thepurpletyrant on Apr 30, 2009 11:35:02 GMT 10
I am a minor, and not menstruating yet. Enjoy it while it lasts because life is much happier when you aren't jonesing for Midol.  I would definitely agree with this. I'm older now (twenty), but even when I was younger I always had a really good relationship with my parents. My family is also "not-very-observant Jewish" and liberal, so while I would have probably garnered some disappoint, I know my parents would have supported me with whatever my decision was. That said, I know a lot of people whose parents would not have been like that, and therefore think that this kind of a decision needs to be made by the teen regardless of what her parents' views on the matter are. It's the mother's body, so it's also her choice, and hers alone. |
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Post by Lisa on Apr 30, 2009 12:35:09 GMT 10
And even when parents DO support you, they might not agree with you - and that kind of judgment (or fear of it) is NOT something that anyone needs.
I know my mum would've supported me if I'd been through something like that when I lived with her, but I also know that she's a pro-life kind of person, though she supports abortion rights. She would not be happy with my decision, and knowing that could have affected my choice.
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Post by xxTunstall Chickxx on May 1, 2009 9:12:51 GMT 10
My family is an atheist, Italian-communist and pro-thought (family joke) and would be very supportive no matter what I chose. Both my parents are pro-choice and completely alright with being gay or having gay friends, etc... though, if I chose to become Catholic or the like, then we´d have a big, big problem.
Aah, I remember those days kaossparrow, then again I have the weirdest periods known to man, they come after four days of non-stop migraine, they come for 8 days and then stop for 2 months. And no cramps. Weird, huh?
"It's the mother's body, so it's also her choice, and hers alone." Yes, yes, yes.
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Post by Lisa on May 1, 2009 12:45:22 GMT 10
And that's fantastic - but (to get the thread back on topic) we have to think of those gals who AREN'T in as great a situation. (and be careful with terms like "pro-thought" - there are plenty of thinking, philisophical people out there who come to conservative conclusions.)
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Post by boosette on May 2, 2009 0:34:09 GMT 10
Like Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin, and Bill Napoli?
/pot-shot
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