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Post by Katty on Apr 24, 2009 8:28:10 GMT 10
So we finally have clarification on the slave thing! From Tammy:
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Post by boosette on Apr 24, 2009 10:21:26 GMT 10
WTF.
I just -
Yeah, I'm sticking with WTF. I'm having a really hard time parsing that.
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lhazel
Rider Trainee
Posts: 67
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Post by lhazel on Apr 24, 2009 22:51:41 GMT 10
She keeps wibbling on whether or not her universe is ethical.
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Post by boosette on Apr 24, 2009 23:05:03 GMT 10
I get that, what I'm having a huge amount of trouble with is how the "large farms" argument (which sounds more like serfdom than actual slavery with the "and supposedly Maren") makes any sense when applied to the Copper Isles - which I suppose is where "long-term slave economy" comes into play.
What I don't get is how that long term slave economy works in TCI - especially when, long-term, it's cheaper to hire poor labor at low wages and boot them when they can't work any longer due to illness, injury or age than it is to care for slaves through those periods of less than stellar health.
Slavery in this universe is not directly analogous to slavery in the real world; especially not the US Southern version of slavery that is first to most USians minds. Since I do have the USian bias, does anyone have any specific background/study of slavery/(serfdom) in other parts of the world? I'm vaguely familiar with slavery as it existed in many parts of pre-colonial Africa and the beginnings of the North American slave trade, but that's the extent of my knowledge outside my country.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 24, 2009 23:42:38 GMT 10
I don't mind the lack of ethics. I hardly expect more from a girl who supports blood oaths.
It reeks, though. The justification isn't solid enough, I think. But I should probably re-read TQ to better understand TCI economics.
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anilaurel
Queen's Rider
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Posts: 505
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Post by anilaurel on Apr 25, 2009 7:38:01 GMT 10
"Slavery in this universe is not directly analogous to slavery in the real world; especially not the US Southern version of slavery that is first to most USians minds. Since I do have the USian bias, does anyone have any specific background/study of slavery/(serfdom) in other parts of the world? I'm vaguely familiar with slavery as it existed in many parts of pre-colonial Africa and the beginnings of the North American slave trade, but that's the extent of my knowledge outside my country."
I'm a history geek and will point out that there was slavery in Europe, Africa, Middle East, North America (First Nations had slaves), South America and I'm not sire about Asia and Australia.
Just for the record there are 48 000 000 people in slavery right now in almost every single country in the world.
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Post by chocolatefridays on Apr 25, 2009 11:17:25 GMT 10
Well. I think that makes sense. Ethically, no, of course. But I see why.
I'm curious whether the Eastern Lands didn't have slavery at one point (someone who remembers Terrier/Bloodhound?). That would make sense for why the Copper Islands, which doesn't seem to have large farms, would have slavery... the Luarin brought their slaves with them, and it got rooted in tradition, I guess.
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Post by boosette on Apr 25, 2009 11:48:11 GMT 10
That's the part that's brain-breaky, though - it would make sense if the luarin had imported their 'peculiar institution', but they didn't; TCI had a slave society (as many societies do, historically speaking free societies are the anomalies, rather than the other way around) before the luarin showed up.
It'd've made a lot more sense if she'd just said "XYZ have slaves and ABC don't because that's the way it is" rather than making a justification that doesn't make a great deal of sense. (And from an ethical standpoint, I like it - a lot - because it's not okay and it's morally D: and it exists in this universe at the hands of otherwise decent people/characters. Tortall-the-universe is the richer for this particular piece of greyscaling.)
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lhazel
Rider Trainee
Posts: 67
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Post by lhazel on Apr 25, 2009 18:46:45 GMT 10
Yes, but it's not greyscaling, is it? All the Tortallans are still white as lilies. It's those damn foreigners etc. etc.
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Post by boosette on Apr 25, 2009 23:02:50 GMT 10
That's a really damned cynical way to look at it, and it's one I don't subscribe to when the Tyrans, Tusaine, Scanrans and Gallans are also not slave nations and when we have characters we're clearly supposed to identify with continue the practice in their respective nations. (Including Aly/Dove and Kally/Kaddar, who do nothing or little to eliminate slavery or to improve the living conditions for slaves in TCI & Carthak.)
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Post by Lisa on Apr 25, 2009 23:41:19 GMT 10
The Eastern Lands most *definitely* had slavery. In Terrier Beka has to stop an illegal slave auction - it's not illegal because it's slavery, it's illegal because it's not sanctioned by the crown (and therefore King Roger isn't getting any taxes off of it!).
We don't have a definite date for when slavery ended in Tortall. During Alanna's first scene in Corus she sess slaves, but there's wiggle-room: it doesn't say if their foreign slaves, or slaves who were "grandfathered" in after slavery was abolished, etc., etc. The only thing to note is that she didn't have any kind of moral opinion - it was mentioned as part of the the "wow, the city is different and busy!" description.
However, chattel slavery was a fairly unique aspect of US slave-holding history. First Nation slaves were made by conquest, for example. South American slaves had more liberty than U.S. slaves outside of New Orleans. (New Orleans went with the French Carribean model, which allowed the slaves to have some semblence of personal life/free time once the work was done - which was much more free than the "free time" that was granted in other parts of the deep South.
The Copper Islands slavery seems to be more like chattel slavery, but it isn't cited as being quite as violent or severe as slavery in the US. I don't know if that's because Tammy was designing it to be different, or if because addressing the horrors would lead to a different kind of book altogether.
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