Rojo
Queen's Rider
There once was a girl who was told she could, and so she did.
Posts: 660
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Post by Rojo on Apr 5, 2009 6:42:48 GMT 10
Inspired by this fic by Kat.What do you think would have happened if Roger had become King? Would he have been a good king or a bad king? Would people such as Myles, Alanna, and Sir Gareth the Elder respected and listened to him? What do you think he would have done with people he could not convince to help him, such as Squire Alan?
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Post by boosette on Apr 5, 2009 7:32:36 GMT 10
Before or after he turned zombie?
In all seriousness, though, if he'd succeeded in taking the throne while he was still alive, I can see Tortall continuing on in much the same state it was in during SotL. Alanna surely would have been executed, and no Alanna means no quest for the dominion jewel, no quest means no Thayet (who wouldn't have married Jon anyway because ... no Jon). No Thayet means no Riders, no Riders means no Onua and no Daine (at least, not in Tortall). As for Kel, well, I doubt Roger would have allowed girls to enter page training (Perhaps Kel's the sort who would train secretly as a boy as well - though I can see Roger instituting a Drop Your Pants policy to check that no girls sneak in.). And Aly? No Alanna means No Alanna/George - no Alanna/George means no Aly, Alan or Thom Jr.
I can see Roger either courting or warring against Carthak - depends on how his personal relationship with Ozorne was. I could see him tracking Numair down and sending him back to Carthak as a sign of good faith.
It's an interesting, if rather bleak, future, I think.
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anilaurel
Queen's Rider
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Gender: Other
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Post by anilaurel on Apr 5, 2009 7:39:20 GMT 10
I can imagine a conqueror thing. So he might take over Galla, Tyra, Tusaine, take your pick. Alot of powerful sorcerers would have died too. Remember how they said people who challenge him have mysterious deaths? Either way I see total tyrant.
While were on the whole personal relationship. How personal are we talking about?
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Post by pineappleyness on Apr 5, 2009 8:24:56 GMT 10
I don't think Myles would have trusted him at all, he seemed pretty suspicious of him at the Drell. I think a few others, like Duke Gareth, might have started to become suspicious, since King Roald, Queen Lianne, and Jon would've all had to die before he became King. Also, Alanna would've had to die an 'accidental' death too, and too many deaths surrounding the throne would look suspicious.
I think a lot of the commoners wouldn't have trusted him either, especially not George. The people were saying that Jon's reign would be cursed because his parents died so close together, so they'd get even more superstitous when everyone in the Royal Family except Roger died.
I think Roger might have been able to lure Thom onto his side with the promise of power. If Thom was given a position as head mage (or something like that) at the court, everyone would know how powerful he was, and he'd be happy.
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Rojo
Queen's Rider
There once was a girl who was told she could, and so she did.
Posts: 660
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Post by Rojo on Apr 5, 2009 8:34:16 GMT 10
If Roger was very careful about coming to the throne, and made sure to destroy all of the evidence, I think people such as the Duke and Myles, and maybe even "Alan," would go along with it. They strike me as the kind of people who, providing the change in kingship came about via legal means (as far as they could tell) would support whoever was the king in general, though they might disagree with certain things the kind does.
Maybe, if they went along with most of the things Roger did, and he hid his regicide well enough, he might let them live. Roger was not fool. He probably realized how valuable to Tortall they were.
I never received that impression. To me, Roger was a man who knew what he wanted, knew what he had to do to get it, and did not mind stepping on a few toes (similar, in a way, to Alanna). He seemed to be a very smart man (you would have to be, in my opinion, to harness and use that great of a gift). The way he was able to attract followers to his cause and maneuver safely about Court seemed to indicate he was politically savvy.
Somewhere in the SotLQ, there is something along the lines of "...he just wanted Roald, Lianne, and Jonathon to die seemingly-natural deaths within the next five years. He did not want a bloody and civil war-torn Tortall."
Providing he was able to get away with stealing the throne, and the powerful nobles went along with most of what he had done, I think Roger would have been, if not the best king Tortall has seen, a decent king.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 5, 2009 8:54:08 GMT 10
Roger has a really nasty way of doing things. I'm not just talking about the whole voodoo approach to killing the queen, or sending horrible illnesses from Carthak. I mean the low that-was-barely-even-passable-in-the-realm-of-conspiratorial-thought stuff, like getting Duke Gareth thrown from the saddle just so he could keep Jon from learning at the main military camp and to get Squire Alan out of the picture (all the meanwhile, he was probably playing Grima to King Roald's Theoden, suggesting things like "don't cross the river even to retrieve captives!")
He's not always neat in the way he does things. (I still blink, amazed, everytime I think: "I burr under Duke Gareth's saddle. Seriously?! The most powerful wizard in the world resorts to torturing a horse to get a guy thrown?!")
As a king, I think Roger would not change his ways. His alliances would probably be shaky at best. He might not want a war-torn Tortall, but I don't really see him compromising with people OUTSIDE of his borders on much. And would he make alliances with nations who would do good things for Tortall, or who would make him more powerful?
I don't think Roger would ever be the kind of king who would sacrifice himself for his nation.
Didn't Jon have to go through an Ordeal before he became the king? I don't know if Roger would've made it through that, since his interests are self-serving when a king needs to serve his people.
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Post by Rosie on Apr 5, 2009 9:00:06 GMT 10
Ozorne may not even have made the throne if Roger had been king - Roger might have supported somebody else, and been in a position to do something about it. I wonder what the state of magic would have been like - Roger strikes me as the type who'd have closed down the university or Mithran cloisters, or whatever it was that Thom went to, shutting down the competition. Bet Thom's reaction to that would be unpleasant
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Post by boosette on Apr 5, 2009 11:59:41 GMT 10
Now there's something I pay to see. I wonder whether Thom would have found a way down to Caththak for himself, or found some other way to continue his studies (possibly working for the crown?). This probably depends on when Roger makes it to the throne - a Roger whose sweating sickness works places Our Heroes in a very different position than a Roger who's plans didn't succeed until the Lianne Fountain Voodoo thing.
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Post by Katty on Apr 5, 2009 21:49:53 GMT 10
If Roger had killed Jon off before Alanna became a knight, it would have been a very different story. She more than likely wouldn't have been exposed in a fight with him, for example (unless she had proof he killed her prince?). If Jon had died while she was his squire, she most likely would've quietly left court after Jon's death - i can't really see her sticking around after Jon died. I can't see many people accepting a suspicious death when Jon was a popular young adult prince. If he'd died as a child though, he would have been far less entrenched in the identity of the kingdom (which is probably why Roger was trying to get rid of him young). Perhaps Alanna would've stuck it out despite her suspicions - her plans to become a knight were never contingent upon Jon. Maybe she would've been Gary's squire, and knighted by King Roger. Her relationship with Roger would've been very different (Alanna/Roger? ). My mind boggles with plot possibilites I definitely see Roger as the conquerer type - he was born in the decades after his grandfather King Jasson III conquered Barzun and pushed the borders of Tortall further than they'd ever been. He was probably raised to believe of military power and glory was his birthright. I have no illusions that Roger was in it for the power, but I think that, seeing the abysmal rule of his uncle, Roger would've been disgusted. Perhaps on some level he thought he was saving the Conte line from weakness and disaster. Jon admits that he deals with many issues that were a result of his father's lack of discipline through the realm - Roger would have began to see that legacy too. I don't think Roger would have been a cruel king on purpose - he would have seen Roald's mercy as weakness, and tried to strengthen his realm though a bit of heavy-handedness, for awhile at least.
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lhazel
Rider Trainee
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Post by lhazel on Apr 6, 2009 1:23:11 GMT 10
If Roger had become king, the Goddess would smite Tortall until she found an acceptable substitute. Basically Tortall would become Carthak circa Emperor Mage. Who would Roger have appointed as heir? One of the second or third cousins, I suppose. Or else he would have made a marriage of state, which could have been very interesting.
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Mina
Rider Trainee
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Post by Mina on Apr 6, 2009 7:35:04 GMT 10
I think it all depends on the timeline. If Jon had died from sweating sickness, things might have been a bit more tight for Alanna especially as she would have been grieving badly. An early death for the queen wouldn't have been much of a stretch without magical help, not after losing her only son, and if Roald reacted the same way to her death as he did in SOTL no one would have been too suspicious. The royal couple wouldn't have been the first or last destroyed by having to bury their only child. At that point suspicion against Roger wasn't high, so it would have been a lot easier to get accepted by Gareth, Myles and the other important powers. Especially as his time frame was in the next 5 years or so - let the royal couple age beyond their years due to the loss, be named new heir, due to the lack of other options and the fact that the queen is not fertile anymore and wait things out. With a King with a more active interest in power the war with Tusain would have been bloodier and more invasive instead of just maintaining borders. Even a heir with more ambitions might have worked that way.
What I am having trouble with is a) what would have happened to Alanna once she shows her gender; b)the fate of the bazhir and their Voice c)possible repercussions of the lack of the Dominion Jewel later on in Tortall history
And I see Roger as a person who'd go for the marriage and own heir - if for no other cause then the security that his heir won't try to overturn him the same way for at least a decade and a half most likely at least two decades. An older second or third cousin and the relatives of him would have been a risk that's just not Roger
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Post by nicolasophie on Apr 6, 2009 11:15:13 GMT 10
Mmm I can either see Roger condemning Alanna, confiscating her titles and sending her out of the country once she was revealed she was a girl, OR if he felt he could manipulate her, or there was no threat from her, he may have let her be (although I can't see him allowing female knights).
This is of course, if Alanna wasn't too close to Jon when he died. If she is smart enough, now that Jon, Roald and Lianne are dead, she will continue to travel (maybe still meet Liam?), just never get involved in the court. If Roger doesn't see her as a threat, if she swears fealty to him, I think he'd leave her alone.
I always saw Myles' "court drunk" status as a way of making sure the court players dismissed him and didn't realise how much he knew/observed. Myles would just continue that way, making efforts to not appear knowledgeable and suspicious, and support Alanna in her adventures.
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Post by samantha on Apr 7, 2009 11:23:14 GMT 10
King Roger, it's an interesting thought. I don't think he'd be a tyrant at all. A King is nothing without the his people. Roger is a smart person, he would have known that it would be better to run the country efficiently and have the people ... respect (? maybe not, but just not entirely hate) him.
A quote from the movie Ever After springs to mind: "A country's character is defined by its "everyday rustics," as you call them. They are the legs you stand on and that position demands respect."
But did Roger really dislike Alanna for being female? Or did he use it as an excuse for his dislike of her spoiling his attempts at the throne? I think he might have been a rather good King, putting aside the way in which he assumed the throne. No he's not self sacrificing, but he'd be the sort of person who would get things done. Sentimental issues wouldn't be a problem with Roger. He wouldn't be the sort of King who would need to separate his friendships with his work like Jon, because frankly, I can't see Roger with any "real" friends.
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Post by boosette on Apr 7, 2009 11:32:51 GMT 10
Not necessarily, but it did add credibility to his dislike of her - officially banning girls from knighthood would be a way to secure support in the aftermath of Alanna's outing - a political move rather than a personal vendetta.
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Mina
Rider Trainee
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Post by Mina on Apr 7, 2009 11:40:31 GMT 10
But that would only play a role if he became King in a later attempt at regicide. If he had become heir after the Sweating Sickness or the Black City the need to act against her would eb lessened. And I see Roger as someone who'd see the Power of Alanna as a tool , as long as he can wield it. So if he became the legitimate heir, he'd be pretty intelligent to keep her close - and as long as there was no proof of his involvement in Jon's death and as long as he acted hurt and grieved enough - Alanna's sense of honour and duty would have made her a good tool combined with her level of power and skills. Now lets say it was the Ylandir that killed him, cause he managed to sneak past Alanna - she might still follow the plotline to the Dominion Jewel, and that would make a very strong argument for female knights and for keeping her around.
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Blade
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age and trechery!
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Post by Blade on Apr 7, 2009 11:46:26 GMT 10
I'd had to agree, I do not think that Roger would have done anything drastic to Alanna had Jon died in AtfA, he just wouldn't have to. What could a page/squire do the the hier of the kingdom? Also, I don't think that he would have any interest in the pages, Roger would have wanted the country to run as usual, no one wants true upheval,andit said he did not want a civil (or any war for that matter) to ravage his country (somewhere in ItHotG, too lazy to get the exact quote).
I could not see Roger as a tyrant, a tightfisted mongel yes, but he would not have been the most evil King in the Eastern Lands... that's reserved for the Copper Island Rivettons thank you very much, compared to them, Roger would have been quite safe.
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Post by merkaba on Apr 13, 2009 5:27:40 GMT 10
I personally think Roger would have done well as king of Tortall especially if Jon had died in the Sweating Sickness. Later than that could have caused some more problems, but I think he could have also handled them. Roger would not have been as liberal a ruler and created as many reforms geared towards the common people as Jon and Thayet have, but I see him handing one or two to keep the population on his side. He might rule absolutely, but he would be intelligent enough to keep the appearance of sharing power with his nobles, if not with the people. He is very ambitious and self-serving, but I believe those traits would just help him rule better. I think he would realize that as king, the situations of the country are tied directly his contemporaries' and the future's personal view of him. He wouldn't want to be remembered as that sort of person, even if he was. He was ‘a bit’ preoccupied with appearances. I agree with others that he'd be a conqueror. It would in part be a reaction to King Roald's pacifism, and it is also part of his nature. He wants power, and would have been able enough to get it. I'm not sure what Alanna would do. If Jon died in the Sweating Sickness, Alanna wouldn't have yet met Roger and realized she disliked him. She might have suspicions, but wouldn't be able to do anything about them. As Roger didn't discover she was a girl when he 'examined' her, I don't think he would even if Jon was dead. She'd probably be squire to another of her friends, and still get to the Ordeal. I’m not really sure what would happen. Plot line?
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Post by Anaroriel on Apr 13, 2009 5:44:36 GMT 10
Hmm, I don't know. There must be something about Roger that would have turned Tortall in a bad way, judging by the amount of interference the Goddess has in Jonathan's future.
I don't think that he would be a bad king, actually. Careless, and uncaring that he killed hundreds if not more with the Sweating Sickness just to kill one boy, but other leaders throughout history have done equally or worse than that.
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Mirage
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Post by Mirage on Apr 13, 2009 9:33:06 GMT 10
Regarding Alanna...his reaction when her gender was revealed during their duel does show plenty of bad feeling, but I've always thought that had more to do with the attitude of "I was being beaten by a woman??" than issues against women fighting in general. Also, he's a man who very much likes things under his control, it was probably as much disbelief that he didn't figure it out, as anything else.
I don't think Roger would have been a horrible king necessarily...but I agree it does largely depend on what time it occurred. For example, through most of the books he seems like simply a man who wants the throne (if simply is ever a word to describe such...) - but in the scene in LR when he warns Delia & co from acting without his express orders...that man is scary.
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Apr 14, 2009 12:02:21 GMT 10
See, I always thought that it was because she hide it from him for so long, showing that her magic as a shield was stronger than his magic as a probe only showing how weak he was (infront of the whole court none the less) and that served to anger him further.
I personally don't think that the Goddess was against Roger per say, she certainly does not care about quality of rulers if the Copper Isles were under the Rivetton rule for so long. I always saw her as a 'powers that be' kind of Goddess.
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Post by pineappleyness on Apr 14, 2009 16:09:42 GMT 10
I always interpreted it more as Roger trying to make it look like he was the good guy, and that Alanna was the liar trying to make him look bad.
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Apr 14, 2009 19:45:08 GMT 10
Regarding Alanna...his reaction when her gender was revealed during their duel does show plenty of bad feeling, but I've always thought that had more to do with the attitude of "I was being beaten by a woman??" than issues against women fighting in general. Also, he's a man who very much likes things under his control, it was probably as much disbelief that he didn't figure it out, as anything else. Anything she said or did at that moment that was 'out of the norm' would have gotten him to blow up tat way. It's more about the bad feeling of being exposed and having tried to blame it on just about everyone when Alanna showed the evidence. He'd cling to any argument against her at that point. - I don't even think her being a woman really was an issue in that moment, the issue was him being VERY desperate because he was undergoing trial by combat when his plans had seemed to go so well for once. There must be something about Roger that would have turned Tortall in a bad way, judging by the amount of interference the Goddess has in Jonathan's future. I actually saw two reasons for that interference - a) regiced was cursed at the time, I can see that happen to any guy planning regicide (we do get to know how all the gods turned from the last perpetrator who lingered on after he got caught and tortured to death because the gods turned their back on him and let him suffer); b) Alanna is her Champion and Alanna has more to do then just to keep Jon alive. Who helps Jon to kill the Ysandir and get rid of dangerous 'spirits' that kill humans and mock the Gods. Who helped to save Tortall in the Tusaine war, who was the goal that made the things happened that ended the war rather unbloody? (yes there had already been quite a few death, but fighting on, holding that bank could have slowly eaten up the forces of both countries in a long drawn out war), who makes it possible for Jon to become the Voice of the Bazhir, who changes things for the Bazhir in General? Who found the Dominion Jewel? - All in all I saw Jon as a tool the Goddess needed alive for the way she wanted to save and change the world. Back to the Roger and Alan situation. I re-read the series and found another thing I had forgotten. Roger's last ditch effort on getting Alan's power for himself - because Roger realized the powerfull tool Alan could make - was his offer of friendship the night Alan was kidnapped by the Tusaine during watch. He wanted her enough to lay open his cards, a very daring step even with the fact that he'd known she'd got kidnapped in minutes if she didn't answer favourably. He usually was a better evil mastermind, but he basically admitted to wanting to her friend(s) there. So while it is very hard to say what Roger might have done once she revealed her sex, he wanted the tool Alan could make as long as he'd be not too aggressive against Roger.
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