Why does everyone hate Aly?

[boosette]

George took Aly - had been taking her for a while - to a meeting with some of his agents; the meeting went badly quickly and Aly had to kill someone (and was nearly killed herself?). Afterwards, George stopped taking Aly with him to such meetings.

This feels like it would have been a gigantic, necessary turning point in her story that we don't get to see because of the two-book format.

I think I should also take this point to clarify that while Aly is hardly my favorite Tortallan heroine, I don't think any less of people who *do* like her - I just think I would have liked her story better if it had been handled differently. (And I hope people who do like Aly look further into stories about real-life spies - it's a very interesting trade!)

[thepurpletyrant]

I would definitely agree that it should have been included. I think one of my favorite parts of the series was in the first couple of chapters where she's still in Tortall because I wanted to know more of her character depth from how she interacted with her family before her being sent off on the Great Big Aventure.

Where do you find all of these tid bits that aren't in the books? I often feel one step behind everyone else in fandom.

(If you're interested in spies, check out the International Spy Museum in Washington DC. Pretty cool, though probably a little glazed over.)

[boosette]

Oh, absolutely. I love the scenes with Alanna because her character evolved so logically.

Lots of it is quasi-canon, archived at the Words of Tamora Pierce blogspot that has been floating around in bits and pieces for ages. It's kindof entered the fannish subconscious in a way that can be a little overwhelming.

(The spy museum has been on my list of places to visit since I moved to the East Coast! I hear it's more accurately described as an espionage museum, but that's just not as fun/awesome a name.)

[opalgirl]

'Hate' is too strong of a word. Aly is... almost likeable.

If she'd had more development, had been given a quartet instead of cramming a giant plot into two books, I think I would've enjoyed the character more.

She gets ... one mention in WM? Four years old, stuck in the nursery (off the pages) while Thom and little royalettes romp with Daine. Then, all the sudden, she's 16, butting heads with her mother - and is an excellent spy.

Sure. She might have had an aptitude for it. I would've loved, like others have said, to have seen her growing up wiith Alanna for a mother. Can you imagine the pressure? I want to see her learning from George. I want to see cool Aunt Rispah telling wee!Aly things young girls aren't supposed to hear. I want to see George and Alanna fight over her future - Alanna getting angry that George is 'encouraging' her, when he doesn't think he is.

Also, I'm sorry, I want to see the first time she calls Numair 'Uncle Numy.' Heee. For the book to overlap with 'Squire' would've been perfect - we might have gotten jealous!Aly, because Alanna's focus would have been on Kel.

[cha hoppy]

This is just a question that popped into my head while I was reading TC before my morning class.

The main problem that everyone in this thread seems to be pointing out is that we weren't allowed to see Aly grow into her abilities like we did with Alanna/Daine/Kel. And from what I gather, many of you read either all those series or at least one of them before going into the Trickster books.

So my question is: would Aly had bothered you so much if you had not read one of the other heroine's books/series first. As basically, I'm seeing that this is the comparison point in this thread. Everyone is comparing the build up of character to how TP had done it in the previous series.

And I read TC & TQ before I read the other Tortall books, so the lack of earlier character building had not bothered me very much, as I was not comparing Aly to one of the other Heroines as I read. I accepted Aly's skills like I would have accepted the skills of any other character that was written in a thick novel (or two Novel series as the Trickster books are) or stand alone book.

So I'm just curious on this point. Granted, it'd take some imagination, but that's my question. Yes, I know you'd still have this character point after reading the other series, as even I admit it's a sort of flaw in the series, but Aly still doesn't bother me quite so much, and I wonder if perhaps this has a play in it.

[opalgirl]

You may have a point there, chahoppy. I don't think my dislike of Aly would've been so strong if I hadn't read all of the previous Tortall books.

[boosette]

So my question is: would Aly had bothered you so much if you had not read one of the other heroine's books/series first. As basically, I'm seeing that this is the comparison point in this thread. Everyone is comparing the build up of character to how TP had done it in the previous series.

I like to think I would have judged her as stringently as I do, and here's why. Aly is sixteen, a girl who has taken an artificially long adolescence for her universe as per Word of God*, who has all the skills of a person far beyond her age and experience. She's unusual in this respect; I'll accept a degree of unusualness because come on, this is Tortall, where talking god-cats and flying horses are the norm, and Aly is the protagonist of her story.

That acceptance of the unusual only goes so far for me. I expect teenage characters to "show their work" to a far greater degree than I do adult characters. For example, the main characters of Burn Notice and the Dresden Files are a [former] spy and a private detective, respectively, and they're both pretty kickass. It's easier for their writers to make extraordinary things come of them believably, as "What the, he's not - he DID!!" because they're both in their forties. We know they've been active in their fields for 20+ years, and that they're good because otherwise they'd be dead or doing something else.

Aly, by contrast, can't have twenty or even ten years experience, because she's only sixteen. She should, by what we do see of her skill and experience, be making rookie mistakes (we know she's been trained in codes and ciphers and the admin side of spy work - Aly, a close-third-person unreliable narrator, suggests to us that she's also awesome at fieldwork but her parents are silly and won't let her do it, don't you feel her pain? Again, sixteen, unreliable narrator, good at self-aggrandizing.).

And she does make rookie mistakes, like going into Ochobu's village in blackface thinking it's a good idea, but they aren't mistakes that effect her in any meaningful way or cause her any significant problems. She doesn't misjudge anyone's character or place trust in people she shouldn't or get played (not uncommon rookie mistakes in the spy trade).

And her rivals are all either grossly incompetent (Topabaw, the Rittevons/Jimajens) or quickly turned to the side of good (Taybur).

---

* Word of God - a trope name for The Author Said So.

[cha hoppy]

Yes, I accept those points, as she does seem a bit too competent in most areas. As I'm not saying I accept everything just because we're given it, as it is from Aly's perspective, and as you say she is only sixteen, and not only that a foreigner in the area. Yes, it's easy to sympathize with her, because she is the outlet that we are receiving information from. As such, even her "mistakes" could be smoothed over.

But she does still make mistakes. Since I am re-reading it, I am actually thinking about these things a little as I'm reading (hence why I came up with my question). I can bring up another mistake: with the assassins; she fails to check the room before allowing any Balitangs in, which results in Sarai having to kill the assassin, and Aly does berate herself for it, granted, this doesn't seem to haunt her for very long, especially when she perceives the good that it caused but it does cause her to place herself more on her guard.

However, I can't help feeling that the situation Aly is in also plays a role in how good a spy she is perceived/perceives herself to be. As this isn't Tortall where there are the excellent spymasters and people and a striving city. She is out in, for lack of better terms, the middle of no where. She is dealing more often than not with country people for the majority of TC (I wont go in TQ until I re-read it again, as it's been some time since I last picked it up), where perhaps it wouldn't be so easier for her to make rookie mistakes that will cost her dearly.

But this also brings in the fact, that she is dealing with people who are different than she expects, and one would believe a few more mistakes are made. However, like Dove, Aly seems to be a person who is constantly observing what is going on around her, which paired with a strong mind may also play into how she surviving and acting.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm babbling (since I'm writing a little quick now, as I have to leave for my next class in a bit), as I feel like I'm going back and forth on these points. As I can see things both ways, and I guess I'm just trying to find a ground point where all the pieces seem to fit and it makes sense...

[Maia]

At least for me, not making mistakes isn't all that bothers me about Aly (though that does definitely grate). What's really bothersome is that no other character seems to call her out on anything she does (except Kyprioth once, but it was all for The Greater Good anyway, since then they decided to make Dove queen), so even if she makes mistakes, they never are recognized by others and thus, never really recognized by the audience.* Like Candice said, there are never any noteworthy negative consequences.

I'm pretty lenient with fantasy heroes and heroines, since I know that their skills have to strain credulity in order to be interesting. Still, I felt that Aly continuously crossed that line, and that's what I had a predominant issue with. I understand that mistakes in her field could be deadly, but I for one would much rather have seen an Aly truly suffering through the consequences of a bad mistake than Super Aly whizzing through situations that would have gotten the better of older, more professional spies.

* I will say that I've only read this series once, and that was quite a while ago, so if someone wants to correct me, please do so.

[cha hoppy]

Apr 7, 2009 12:16:59 GMT 10 Maia said:

seen an Aly truly suffering through the consequences of a bad mistake than Super Aly whizzing through situations that would have gotten the better of older, more professional spies.

I have to say, the question that popped into my mind after reading this is what sort of situations in TC & TQ do you feel that Aly whizzed through too easily? Which situations that Aly faced would have made a veteran spy squirm?

I'm still working my way through TC again and it's been a few years since TQ (and I only read it once) so it's hard for me to think of them off the top of my head. But I figured I'd ask, as it's a valid question, to see exactly what situations/problems that Aly faced specifically should have been difficult for her/veteran spy (or you feel would be difficult) -- as teachers always say, go to the text and support yourself -- as it's easy to say, yeah, she should have had more troubles but if you can't really bring up any examples it's hard to really follow the argument. As with examples, we can pick them apart and say "well, she should have had troubles here and here for whatever reason" or something along those lines.

And I'm just curious; it's not that I necessarily disagree, just trying to expand this out more and see what people come up with, as it'd be easy to go with the flow of everyone else in here and talk about her faults without questioning them for further clarification and depth on the opinions expressed .

[boosette]

I can bring up another mistake: with the assassins

Which ultimately is little more than an inconvenience, on the first count because he survives the readheaded assassin and on the second because when he does die, Mequen had been in line for the throne. He had to die for the plot to move forward. There were more appropriate deaths, narratively speaking, than his (one of the girls? that would have upped the stakes.), and his death also marks the beginning of Sarai's character assassination. Mequen's death was only a little less convenient than Elsren and Dunevon's.

(Which, if Aly had really been the clever one, she would have found another solution to their deaths and found one early. Marrying them off in alliance while they're both still too young to remember much, to some place peaceful and far, far away seems like a good idea to me.)

I can't help feeling that the situation Aly is in also plays a role in how good a spy she is

I did account for the unreliable narrator and still came up wanting.

Aly seems to be a person who is constantly observing

Oh, Aly is definitely an observer - it accounts in large part for the complexity of the prose and the depth of description. She takes in everything in great detail - but I was never sure how much of that detail she actually absorbed and filed away for later use. (I actually like this narrative technique - burying relevant clues in a sea of other less relevant information because it forces the reader to think about the story as they're reading. Things that seemed to be throwaway lines later showing themselves as important & such.)

Which situations that Aly faced would have made a veteran spy squirm?

It's been a long time since I read either TC or TQ, but ...

TC - The knife she swipes from Chenaol's kitchen could have been spotted early on, and inhibited her ability to gain the conspiracy's trust. Chef always knows where Chef's knives are,

TQ - A competent Topabaw, for one. The man is the in-world equivalent of the head of the CIA, we're led to believe a former spy himself, and yet ... Aly magicks her way out of any difficulty that might arise from her encounter with him. With a magic she acquired off-book.

TQ - Being caught at the slave docks and brought in for questioning, before or after the act went off. Instead she's caught by people on her side, who value her, and her punishment is effectively not getting to play in the sandbox anymore.


Overall, I agree that not a heck of a lot happens in TC. It could have been half as long and still conveyed the story it needed to convey, opening up more pagespace for Aly's character or skill-development, or extending into the winter to allow us to take in the full scope of the emotional plot. (Which I felt was overwhelmingly skimpy in TC/TQ, occurring in fits and starts and mostly relating to Aly/Nawat - I think this is probably because Tammy is action-plot oriented and, well, balks at writing things she doesn't enjoy/isn't 100% enthusiastic about. [see also: how long has Bloodhound been delayed again?])

[cha hoppy]

Marrying them off in alliance while they're both still too young to remember much, to some place peaceful and far, far away seems like a good idea to me.

Yes, but would Kyprioth or their fellow have allowed that to happen? It could seem too much of a loose end to them. To allow someone close the royal blood line to still be alive and essentially some day decide to lead another revolt and end up with another "war."

TC - The knife she swipes from Chenaol's kitchen could have been spotted early on, and inhibited her ability to gain the conspiracy's trust. Chef always knows where Chef's knives are.

Yes, that made me think during this reading of TC. As it did seem odd that no one would notice that the knife is missing or spotted. Yet, it seems to imply that Aly didn't used it, so unless she was horrible at hiding things up her clothes (if she did carry it with her), it's not improbable that it would go unnoticed on her. Especially when the household seems a bit more trusting of their servants/employees. Or maybe not trusting persay but yeah... And even in the kitchen. It may very well depend on what type of knife she swiped. As we have nobles, so I'm assuming a larger kitchen and staff: can Chenaol account of every sharp item in that kitchen? I wouldn't put it past that she could, given that she's the "armory" of the raka group, but it all happens outside the scope we're given so whose to say.

TQ - A competent Topabaw, for one. The man is the in-world equivalent of the head of the CIA, we're led to believe a former spy himself, and yet ... Aly magicks her way out of any difficulty that might arise from her encounter with him. With a magic she acquired off-book.

Hm, I don't have much to say here, as it's been a while since I last read TQ, but I do remember that I wasn't impressed by Topabaw, but granted that could have been from the fact that Aly was not impressed by him. I'll have keep it in mind when I read TQ next, and see what other situations come up that seem too "easy" for Aly, as TC seems more of Aly getting her feet "wet" in this world rather than sort of challenge.

[Rojo]

Apr 8, 2009 0:21:39 GMT 10 cha hoppy said:

TQ - A competent Topabaw, for one. The man is the in-world equivalent of the head of the CIA, we're led to believe a former spy himself, and yet ... Aly magicks her way out of any difficulty that might arise from her encounter with him. With a magic she acquired off-book.

Hm, I don't have much to say here, as it's been a while since I last read TQ, but I do remember that I wasn't impressed by Topabaw, but granted that could have been from the fact that Aly was not impressed by him. I'll have keep it in mind when I read TQ next, and see what other situations come up that seem too "easy" for Aly, as TC seems more of Aly getting her feet "wet" in this world rather than sort of challenge.

Or maybe having Taybur replace Topabaw instead of Sevmir. I found it hard to believe the regents where quite that foolish to place Sevmir in that position.

[Mirage]

But part of the reason the rebellion seemed so easy to Aly is because the Rittevons aren't supposed to be very bright. Power hungry, but not geniuses. I think it's even in the book somewhere: "How had they managed to hold onto the throne for so long? Had they been smart in the beginning, and it just got bred out of them" - think it's paraphrased but you get the meaning.

Also, it shows in quite a few scenes that the regents don't like Taybur much, like when Imajane&Taybur had that thinly veiled confrontation during some party or another. He's loyal to Dunevon first & foremost right? &the regents know that, so it's hard to imagine them placing him in such a powerful position.

[Anaroriel]

Well, in that case, I do wish that the Rittevons had been smarter. The entire scenario was much too easy for Aly. Either make her not as prepared or make the Rittevons a better foe, so we have some genuine conflict and struggle.

[boosette]

But part of the reason the rebellion seemed so easy to Aly is because the Rittevons aren't supposed to be very bright. Power hungry, but not geniuses. I think it's even in the book somewhere: "How had they managed to hold onto the throne for so long? Had they been smart in the beginning, and it just got bred out of them"

I honestly don't think that hanging a lampshade on the villains' ineptitude excuses the fact that they're inept - better to forfeit the comic relief that comes with those humorous throw-away lines in favor of antagonists who are actually credible.

[dorythefish]

It looks like I'm in an itty bitty minority here. I love Aly. And I like her for many of the reasons why other people dislike her. At first I thought it was because I really, really like Alanna, and Aly is her daughter, but then I realized that I like TQ a whole lot more than TC.

Someone mentioned race issues. Somewhat unrelated, but does anyone know what race/nationality the Raka and the Kmiri are based on? I've figured out all the rest, but those two elude me. Back on topic, I think that Aly does a lot to build a bridge between the Raka and the Luarin. Her big thing, constant throughout both books, was avoiding a bloodbath. I think that the Raka were so jaded by their present situation that without an outsider familiar with the history of not only the Copper Isles, but other countries, they would have made the exact same mistakes as were made during the Luarin Conquest, and nobody would be better off.

I don't feel like I'm missing out terribly on Aly's aquisition of skills. Not that I don't wish they'd been included somewhere, but it doesn't bother me that they're not there. But I think that also has a lot to do with my own upbringing. My parents are both doctors, and as such, I've been exposed to a lot of what they do since I was very young. For example, when I was about four, I learned how to suture using ropes and cardboard; when I was 15, I sutured an actual person for the first time. I wouldn't say that I have anywhere near the depth of skills that Aly has, but then I don't live, breathe, and eat medicine like she does with spying. I may not be able to teach my mom's medical students how to read a chest x-ray, but when she shows me one, I can correctly identify what's wrong most of the time. I think it's for these reasons that I can imagine Aly's upbringing and training a little bit more concretely than most people.

Someone mentioned opinions toward Aly if we had read her books before the others. I actually did this, with TC at least, and it confused me terribly. The story itself was wonderful, but all of the outside situations and politics made me not enjoy myself while I was reading it. Of course, I was also 12 at the time.

I really only have two minor complaints. First, not one of Alanna's children had purple eyes. I didn't necessarily care if it was Aly, since that would make spying harder, but not even Alan or Thom had purple eyes. Second, I was highly disappointed with the scene where Aly tells everyone her true identity. I was hoping for at least a little fanfare.

[Lisa]

Somewhat unrelated, but does anyone know what race/nationality the Raka and the Kmiri are based on? I've figured out all the rest, but those two elude me.

Raka = Indonesian
K'miri = Cambodian/Mongolian hybrid. (aka, Cambodians with Mongolian horse-lore)

[faerytastrophe]

All of your in-depth character analysis's of Aly make me jealous. I read these books back when I was around twelve so I can hardly remember anything other than "aww Nawat is adorable" and "Aly is a brat but I like her". The crow/human thing doesn't really bother me like it does others, its practically the same thing as Daine's animal shifting abilities in my opinion. The only difference is that Nawat started off as a crow. I'm going to have to re-read them to reevaluate Aly.

[cha hoppy]

Hum ... I just finished re-reading the Trickster books... and I can't say that Aly bothered me.

This may seem a bit scattered as I'm writing as I recall them...

Her skills I could accept easily as TP gave them a foundation in her writing. She didn't just give Aly these skills but explained for them. Yes, we don't see her actually build them up, but like any narrating tool, we are assured, or as assured as anyone can be by trusting any sort of narrator, that she worked to acquire those skills.

Likewise, I have to fall in line with the person who stated that Aly's skills might not be as questionable because she had strongly capable parents where she was learning things from. Not only that, she has this vast extended family, family who we have read largely about and hence can see how Aly would have learned this stuff even if we don't read about her learning it first hand.

Yes, she has this confidence and snarky attitude but this is really a strong part of her character. It builds up how she is able to gain the trust of the Raka conspirators, not only that she was chosen by a Trickster god, and all through the books, people kept saying "I can see why the God chose you" or "You're definitely the God's." Perhaps she is over confident for a sixteen/seventeen year old, but can one blame her? She is thrusted into a situation where she is trusted and expected to pull her own weight. If she doesn't show confidence, then she lose any trust or strong credibility she might have with the others.

As to the Regents and all that, it's not so much that they are incompetent but more that they are being toyed with. All through TQ Aly is having her people put into motion rumors, and rumors make anyone nervous, which really causes things to get bit sketchy, especially when other members of the Raka people are moving forward to set their Rebellion in motion. The Regents are not merely dealing with what is going on through the city but also through out their lands, having to deal with revolts, dead governors, needing to send men (men they don't really have) to deal with this.

Back to Aly's personality, perhaps it doesn't seem like she grows up much because it is subtle and we have very little to base her changes off of. Aly acknowledges she has changed; we see this when Sarai runs off. Not just with Aly kicking herself in the behind but in her contemplating whether she would have supported Sarai or not and even comparing herself to Sarai when the other girl is in court and flirting with her little groupies.

And I can't remember where Aly runs into her own people, maybe I read it too fast. But she didn't get into trouble so much in going when she wasn't suppose to. Ulisam knew what she was planning and that she going to go herself and he allowed her to. It was only after and when he confronted her on it that she feels it like a "slap." And a lot of this is attributed to her ongoing attraction/love for Nawat who is absent for the majority of the book, which helps to build Aly's character. As even though he's not present, we still see enough mention of him from Aly's perspective and her missing him.

And the spying being too easy for her? I ran in a quote that she was told by Miles: Duke Lohearn is a spymaster as well as a mage, and he has been at his post for thirty years. He thinks he can do everything. If he can't, he'll just kill the problem. No skill, just power. Which goes to show that Topabaw's incompentence is not merely from Aly's perspective; it is built up already form an outside source. We are prejudiced against Topabaw earlier on that it becomes easy to accept Aly's take on him. Even when she criticizes him mentally from not making her swear in blood when she is "recruited" by him, as she would have done in his place. This helps to build the image that he isn't as good a spymaster anymore, or not as thorough, which leads to a mess. AND THEN when Topabaw is "made an example of" a new Spymaster is thrown into the mix who doesn't know Topabaw's files or where he has them, has only dealt on small scale and is thrown from a lake into the ocean, as was stated in the book. Which comes to show how well Aly had been able to to do in her spymastering.

ADD into this mix her gift from Daine of the Darkings. If the Darkings hadn't been around, could Aly had really accomplished things as easy as she had? I feel like the darkings were more of a catalyst to keep the story moving and perhaps made things too easy on Aly. As if they had not come into the story, I can definitely see that things would probably have been more difficult for Aly. She would have had harder tasks/problems to over come... and even in the final battle. The darkings proved irreplaceable as they provided the method of the leaders keeping in contact with each other and knowing what was going on all over the battle. I feel they made things almost too clean...

[boosette]

Cha hoppy - I ... disagree with everything you just said, for all the reasons I've elucidated up-thread. As a character, Aly reads false to me, largely because when I get right down to it I can see in the text, and in the narrative choices Pierce made, exactly how much she disliked writing the story and how that led to a plot that wasn't good for the story, but was good for getting the damned thing over with.

Agree to disagree? (I'm bowing out of this thread for a while; my mind's not on Aly but Alanna right now, secondary to finals and enough Russian to make my head spin.)

[cha hoppy]

Lol, I had basically assumed we would never quite come to same terms on the subject. After all we all have own opinions which lead to personal likes and dislikes. I was merely getting out the impressions I came out with as I had just finished reading TQ, since I sat down pretty much all of today to do so.

Just for me the story flowed well. It did not seem like it was a "doing this to get the thing written" type book for me :shrugs:

Just sort of reminds me of something we lately discussed in my Foundation of Literary Criticism class with Reader Response Theory ... or maybe a mix of that and my Art History 2 survey class ... a person can gather facts to support whatever they want to believe and another person could easily gather facts to support the opposite of the first person, so which facts is one left to believe? I think this fits very much into trying to pick any book apart or explain the impression it left with you as there will always be someone around to disagree with you ...

And I'm ready to move on from Aly and read Terrier for the first time so I can get caught up and read Bloodhound with everyone else since I got my copy a few days ago.

[boosette]

Aly is a very divisive character - the people she clicks for she really clicks for, and the people she doesn't often react with DO NOT WANT. (Well, I reacted that way, anyway.

My first round of DNW was brought on by the prose, oddly; I felt like it was too thick with description, which also happens to be a giant part of Aly's character.)

Spoiler: Terrier is -

Wait, no, I'll let you see that for yourself. But I loved it,

[cha hoppy]

Apr 18, 2009 12:43:05 GMT 10 @boosette said:

My first round of DNW was brought on by the prose, oddly; I felt like it was too thick with description, which also happens to be a giant part of Aly's character.)

I tend to love description (for the most part, as it's has to be done well). Though oddly enough as I was reading today I was musing on the amount of description during a section. It popped into my head when we are given this good size paragraph of how the grounds and buildings are set up for a section and I was just wondering did TP actually draw it out so she could describe it as such ... as it seemed a bit more than perhaps we needed, but perhaps since Aly's main thing of being a spy is that she is practically based off of information and descriptions, so perhaps a description would be expected for her character compared to say our Weapon wielding Heroines... :shrugs:

[Rojo]

In all honesty, I never had an issue with the fact that we never saw Aly build her skills. However, I believe that is a result of growing up on the Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew, Trixie Belden, and the Bobbsy Twins.

[Andy]

I like Aly, and I like her books.

A lot of you are suggesting that you would have liked to have seen books involving Aly's training, but I have to admit that I am not sold on 'training' books in general. I adore Squire, but feel uncomfortable recommending the entire Protector of the Small series because I dislike First Test and Page so much. They are slow and incredibly childish when compared to the rest of the series. I guess I'm just not a fan of the Rowling 'kids can grow with the books' method of writing.

When she wrote the Trickster books, I feel like Tamora Pierce was trying out a new style of writing. The Trickster books are one concise story without all of the backstory requiring its own books. Not every series needs to start with a skill-less character. In fact, I'd say that most books start with characters who are already skilled in their field, whatever it may be. The Trickster books are a departure from her previous novels, but I think that it was for the best.

I think she improved on the new method in the Beka Cooper books. Sure, the story starts with her as a trainee, but we don't see her initial dog training or her time the Lord Gersholm.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't hate Aly.

[scribblescow]

Neither do I... but I agree. More characcter development, less Aly/Nawat squick.

Was I the only person eager for more Taybur scenes?

[Amdillae]

I am going to put my hand up and join the minority, and side with the points of dorythefish.
Personally I had no difficults accepting Aly's capabilities that she had learn practically from the cradle. Now I haven't read TC or TQ for a year so if I am off on any points just let me know.

We are told that as a child Aly's recreational activities were not all that different in some circumstances to training techniques, such as a observation game she adored. Her family and just as importantly her families friends were some of the most powerful in their fields not just in Tortall, but in the know world in some cases. Her liar's palace was tested by one of the most powerful Black Robed mages around. The strength of her sight comes from having an uncle that was capable of raising the apparantly DEAD Conte Duke back. She learn how to wield daggers well enough that her father felt her capabile of defending herself in the case of problems (and yes Geogre didn't like the fact that Aly had to defend herslef but has admitted that she is capable). Aly also appears to have a close bond with Myles, how seemed to also encourage Aly's mind, not just with regards to aspects of spywork, but helping her mind to become more logical with her chess abilities.

In the books Aly made mistakes and some aspects, like Topobau, did go easier than maybe they should but we have been informed that problem have exsisted in the Copper Isles long before the rebellion was offical begun, let alone when Aly arrived. The Isles are at a tipping point and it does not take as much of a push as it would in other circumstances.

dorythefish Hit the nail on the head with one of her comments, the vital importance of the Darkings, they if anything were the aspect that made the plot less plausable.

Length wise I liked the two book format and with regards to number of pages, the Tricksters books are only about 100 pages short that either SotL (my least favourit Tortall series) and CoM.

And now for the comment that I fear have me being pelted with various objects I never though that the Aly/Taybur relationship had any base or have a hope of reaching levels beyond that of friendship. I found and felt that the flirting between the pair was harmless praticing of skills, a method of sizing up the opponent rather any display of feelings. Aly even had the thoughts of enjoying meeting someone that could play her game, and that was all I, imho, ever thought was to come out of it.

WOW long post for my first ever on Goldenlake, but be sure that others are to come.

[Lisa]

And now for the comment that I fear have me being pelted with various objects I never though that the Aly/Taybur relationship had any base or have a hope of reaching levels beyond that of friendship. I found and felt that the flirting between the pair was harmless praticing of skills, a method of sizing up the opponent rather any display of feelings. Aly even had the thoughts of enjoying meeting someone that could play her game, and that was all I, imho, ever thought was to come out of it.

No worries about pelting - we try to be respectful around here. While I'm not in total agreement over your assessment of Aly and TC/TQ (to each their own, I say!), I agree completely with the Aly/Taybur possibility. It's one that I never really got while reading the book, and even upon reflecting I can't come up with any sort of chemistry beyond flirtation.

[cha hoppy]

I'm with you guys on Aly/Taybur pairing. I think when I first read TQ I thought they were possible, but my second reading of the book they did not have enough chemistry for my mind to wander off in that direction. I like Taybur but for me the chemistry wasn't in the book for a pairing with him and Aly. He seemed more of a boredom diversion for her than anything.