Blade
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age and trechery!
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Post by Blade on Apr 6, 2009 9:53:09 GMT 10
A proponent on the Alanna/Jon connection for many years I suddenly found myself quite the opposite. When I reread ItHotG I found myself getting quite frustrated with Jon when it came to romance and Alanna. Maybe its because I've finally grown up and gone through some real pigs that I the Jon/Alanna is starting to rub me the wrong way.
Has anyone noticed how easily swayed Jon is by a pretty face? Roger obviously did, which is why he sent Delia after him. From the stunning-yet wicked- Delia, straight to Alanna(but only after having seen her in a dress). Jon seems to change his flavor of the month quite easily. He is really quite lucky that the most beautiful lady turned out to be a good one or I think that he could have been royally screwed.
I'm quite glad Alanna ended up with George. Not only could he keep up with her, but didn't need her in skirts. Don't get me wrong, I do love Jon, Alanna and him made wonderful best friends, but the fact that it spred to romance just irked me.
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Post by Rosie on Apr 6, 2009 10:02:43 GMT 10
Aw, geez, let the boy grow up For one thing, we don't know when Delia and Roger, er, bonded. He might have seen Jon's interest in her, and then invited her to join his cause - or he might have groomed her from the convent. All the boys at court (save Alex) were allegedly swayed by Delia. I don't feel that Jon does change his "flavour of the month" easily. There's four significant women; Delia, Alanna, Josiane, and Thayet. I know far more fickle boys. Josiane is a rebound, so I'm almost loathe to count her, and he soon realises that she isn't for him, despite being a pretty face. Jon only needed Alanna in skirts (I wrote "in his skirts" first, which shows how tired I am) because of his position. George was free to take her as she was, and I'm sure WWRLAM Jon resented him for it. I love the fact that Alanna's friendship with Jon turns to love. It makes ITHOTG one of my favourite books - and Lisafer's fic with Gary happening upon them on Alanna's seventeenth is never far from my mind when I read that scene.
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Post by boosette on Apr 6, 2009 10:04:48 GMT 10
I like Alanna/Jon - for what it is. They're a terrifically dysfunctional romantic relationship with power issues up the whazoo; Alanna and Jon bring out the best and the worst in one another, when they clash, they clash in a spectacular way, and when they click they click just as spectacularly. Price Jon is incredibly priggish and Squire Alan(na) likewise is pig-headedly stubborn - qualities that don't play well together, and once Alanna is starting to get through her self-esteem and abandonment issues in WWRLAM, those two qualities clash as spectacularly as we would imagine they would. Ultimately, I think a lot of the king Jon became is due to Thayet's influence, in her ability to keep in him from getting too big for his britches as an equal. As a knight sworn to Jon's service, Alanna would never truly be his equal, not when the possibility that he would pull rank on her would always be looming overhead. (And that kind of power imbalance can be both compelling and interesting, in large part because it's so very unhealthy for all parties involved.) So I'm glad Alanna wound up with George (bless his crooked heart) and Jon with Thayet. All the boys at court (save Alex) were allegedly swayed by Delia. Alex had been pre-swayed by Roger. You know what they say about Contes and their squires, after all.
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Post by Rosie on Apr 6, 2009 10:07:30 GMT 10
So I'm glad Alanna wound up with George (bless his crooked heart) and Jon with Thayet. Yes, I am too - realised it may not have come across that way. I like Jon/Alanna as part of the self-discovery process, but ultimately, they don't work - which is part of who they are, as well as what they are.
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Post by boosette on Apr 6, 2009 10:21:15 GMT 10
So I'm glad Alanna wound up with George (bless his crooked heart) and Jon with Thayet. Yes, I am too - realised it may not have come across that way. I like Jon/Alanna as part of the self-discovery process, but ultimately, they don't work - which is part of who they are, as well as what they are. That's one of my favorite aspects of their relationship as well (I clicked reply without having seen your comment?) - I like them very much in the early fumbling stages of their relationship, when it's as if Jon is still wrapping his head around the concept of Alanna not just being this nebulous concept of A Crosdressing Girl, but of being the girl/woman that he loves. (ITHOTG's gender issues break my brain - Alanna in the garden as a girl cross-dressing as a boy cross-dressing as a girl (latching on to her masquerade as a boy) - it's a wonder she can keep herself straight, let alone think about romance!)
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Post by Rosie on Apr 6, 2009 10:40:22 GMT 10
Everything you said there is what makes ITHOTG so great to fic. I like playing around with seeing all the tension from another character's perspective, to whom Alan and Jon probably seem preternaturally serious at times.
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Post by nicolasophie on Apr 6, 2009 11:01:18 GMT 10
I just love Jon as a character - the transformation from Prince who is used to being defined by the court, and then realising that's not enough. I think in a sense Alanna is part of his development - she's part of his realisation that being pretty and good looking and rich and royal are not important. And that he loves women with strength.
That's a beautiful way of explaining it.
I love their dynamic, the whole "King/Champion", close friends, political advisor, intimate knowledge of each other. I think Alanna's one of the few who can be quite close to Jon as King and still tell him where it's at bluntly. And i think in a way, she's experienced every aspect of Jon, and knows him much more deeply and well than Gary or Raoul, who haven't seen him react in such a variety of circumstances.
It's a deep love/annoyance relationship. But you need the friendship aspect and no annoyance to be in a long-term rel. They wouldn't have worked romantically, but i look at the enduring friendship both between them and the rest of the old Sotl guard, and hope my friends and I are like that when we're old. But for some reason, A/J relationship to me has more dynamic and power and passion than those with Raoul, George, Gary etc.
On a side note, I know what i think, but what does everyone think of the A/J fight in First Test?
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Post by boosette on Apr 6, 2009 11:17:34 GMT 10
And that he loves women with strength. I like the idea that Alanna was instrumental in teaching Jon to love strong women - Delia and Josiane caught his attention, but Alanna and Thayet held it - and it might have taken him much longer to find that preference out for himself without Alanna in the picture, if he managed to escape marriage long enough to do so. On a side note, I know what i think, but what does everyone think of the A/J fight in First Test? I thought it was a little contrived, to be truthful - designed to make us boo Wyldon - and that Alanna's hissyfit fit very well with her characterization circa ATFA/ITHOTG. I'll excuse it because female knights are obviously a hot-button issue for her, but I excuse it grudgingly.
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Post by nicolasophie on Apr 6, 2009 11:37:05 GMT 10
Mmmm... interesting! I always felt that Alanna has matured quite a lot / less tempersome / less stubborn than in SotL (one of the reasons why she and jon get along better as older friends than young lovers...)
Perhaps Jon said to her at the time "I cannot change this law, I know you want me to, but I can't, but to make it up to you I will make girls able to be knigths" - and this got her goat?
I think even while she was storming out of the room, Alanna knew that Jonathan was making the right political decision.
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Mirage
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Post by Mirage on Apr 6, 2009 11:48:44 GMT 10
I do like the AJ pairing (but I don't think it should have gone on any longer than it did in the books) - but I'm right in the middle of rereading Woman Who Rides Like A Man, and in the scene in the desert (the night where they...reunite, and he first proposes) I really, really wanted to slap Jon. He comes off as an unbelievable prig, and maybe it's just me, but does it seem like the way he acted was such a huge contrast to the AJ relationship shown in the previous book?
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Post by nicolasophie on Apr 6, 2009 12:03:58 GMT 10
When i first read it, and was MASSIVE fangirl of A/J, I was sitting there going "wait, where is my Jonathan?" I think maybe the time at court without Alanna to ground him got to him?
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Serenity
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Post by Serenity on Apr 6, 2009 12:33:38 GMT 10
It's really kind of funny, because I went just the opposite direction you did, Blade. When I was younger and (shamelessly) consumed by my unwavering adoration for the series, I was so intensely focused on the A/G pairing, that absolutely everything Jon did involving Alanna drove me batty. I liked him in the first book, I think, because I hadn't yet had the chance to see an alternative; I knew I was charmed by George the Character, but it took the second book for me to even consider him as a potential George the Lover. And when my eyes were opened to this, I turned rather quickly against my original A/J tendencies.
At the time, I was bothered by the pressure Jon put on Alanna, in a variety of different ways -- the way he seemed inclined to get her to change pieces of herself, however small. I always felt like he was trying to make her do things against her wishes for his own gratification. Namely, the first time they had sex. My delicate pre-teen sensibilities were shattered when he coerced her into doing something that she had so adamantly protested. And, telling her that she's fighting something that "has to be", sent up big, flashing neon warning signs in my head.
Now that I'm older, I realize a lot of this was simply depicting teenage awkwardness and lust in a fairly accurate and harmless manner. Besides, we all know what Alanna could do to Jon if he actually pressured her into something she was dead set against. If the setting were different, I would be bothered by it still, but in hindsight, I feel it just gives both characters development. Especially taking into account how they grow from there, and what kind of relationship they ultimately have.
I am still not a strong advocate for Jon the Prince, but that's largely to do with the fact that he is a teenager and all that entails. In a way, I like that he can be a bit of a schmuck. It gives him room to grow, and rings true. In fact, it makes sense for King Jon to have originally come from Prince Jon -- the progression is totally justifiable on all levels. And while I agree that he is definitely a sucker of beautiful women, that's not an unreasonable flaw to have. Is it fair? Not really. Is it normal? Pretty much. I also echo Candice in that, while Jon is a fan of lovely ladies, it's the ones with greater depth that hold his interest.
I don't like Alanna and Jon together romantically, but I think it worked, from a narrative perspective, as a realistic fling. Anything past that, and I don't think either of them would have been happy. In fact, I think the way the pairings went, and everything in between, was very nearly pitch-perfect.
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opalgirl
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Post by opalgirl on Apr 6, 2009 13:04:04 GMT 10
My two cents, honestly subjective (and combined with my attempts at humour): Without Alanna at Court, being fawned over by all the women, with Gary and Raoul + rest of the crew presumably on knightly duties (Raoul with the Own, etc), Prince Jon (who is very different from King Jon) got spoiled. The son and heir to the realm, King and Queen's only child and handsome to boot? He didn't have anybody to smack him upside the head (figuratively) and say: "Hey, you're an idiot. Stop doing that." So he comes to the desert, to Alanna and expects her to marry him, just because he's the Prince and he's handsome and he's awesome. She says no, he throws a hissyfit. Alanna was right, in WWRLAM - he didn't want to marry her for the 'right' reasons - not out of love. He didn't want to grow up and was going to marry her as an extension of this not wanting to grow up. He was rebelling, wanting to do what he wanted - and screw what everybody else wanted. Not entirely unreasonable for a young man in his position (or a young person period), but he needed someone to ground him. I don't think Alanna would have made a 'good' Queen - she's mellowed some, with age and maturity (from what we see of her), but she would probably never be very diplomatic. Jon and Alanna honestly make better friends than husband and wife. Marriage is a different kind of relationship. I have a feeling she'd find life as a queen too confining - when she has her own home, she doesn't have to be in the public eye, not always watching what she says and does. George lets her be. She was, going off quotes from later PoTS books and her fears in WWRLAM and LR, viewed as a 'freak' or 'unnatural' by the Court. George doesn't see her as a freak. Thayet is very grounding for Jon. She's not a hothead like young!Alanna, but is probably just as stubborn. She takes more freedoms than Queen Lianne (eg. roaming with the Rider trainees for the summer), but manages to balance that and being the queen. Thayet balances him, too. She keeps him from getting too smug and full of himself, which is probably what happened while Alanna was roaming during WWRLAM, before the deaths of Roald and Lianne. As a friend of mine put it, after reading SOTL, the early bit of Jon and Thayet's marriage probably consisted of a lot of "you're an idiot, but you're MY idiot," from Thayet. Of course, she could always threaten to turn Buri on him, too.
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Apr 6, 2009 17:27:36 GMT 10
They were very good as a pairing first, the way they went through some of Alanna's identity issues and commitment fear was quite nice to read and at some point I could support the J/A relationship. The fact that he needed to see her in a dress was always about the way they lived for me, he was pretending and I think feeling like she was the boy she played most of the time, he saw and worked with her a lot more than George and had known her closer as the boy she presented to the world, for him the dress was the first real sign of her really being a woman around him. George had the incident with her first period, and her visits to Eleni to get a bit more used to the thought of Alanna instead of Alan, while Jon had to be very sure not to endanger her situation and a lot less practise at this kind of stuff than George. For me the proposal in the desert always felt wrong. Like a cop out to get the main character out of marrying the King and putting her too high to be interesting anymore and forcing her in the role of married woman before the plot was ready. Without Alanna's fear of being in a Golden Cage and making bad mistakes in a high position, it might have worked out, even that way it might have worked out IF but only if Jon had worked through it with her as he did her first issues. Instead we get a Jon that doesn't truly feel like Jon anymore to have an easy way out of it. As a teen I started to dislike Jon for the scenes he made in the desert. As an adult I can't believe how twisted it was in a way. (I can get the other art parts of irritating Jon in the desert as I always felt a lot of it was connected to deep frustration about his own Golden Cage, that as of yet came without power. He already saw how his father was mismanaging the country, he was not allowed to work on it and that. - ) A bit of odness in Alanna could have been overlooked, Kings and Queens of all times have been unstable because of all the intermarriage Eccentric rulers were a part of life (like Tusaine's king at some point)
After the desert scene played out an A/J was unsupportable anyway ... though I cannot be angry about his rebound as Alanna jumped George and Liam after that before settling down. The one rebound of Jon that we know of isn't worse than that. -- I was actually irritated that she ran for George at that point in time. In the long run, George accepts Alanna more fully and gives her more freedom than she could ever had in a marriage to Jon. It's just not usually that much of a factor in who you fall for ...
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Post by pineappleyness on Apr 6, 2009 17:37:42 GMT 10
I think they were good together while it lasted, but it wouldn't have worked at all if she had married him.
I agree with this, except I think he did love her. He wanted to marry her because he loved her at that point in time, and just wanted to think about himself marrying the woman he loved, instead of her wants and needs and his royalty. As just a man and a woman, they worked together fine. The problem was that Alanna would hate being Queen, while Jon had spent his whole life being prepared to be the King and he couldn't understand how it would trap her.
I think they work well together as friends, you can tell there's a sort of comfortableness between them in the later books, even though they have their arguments.
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Post by Rosie on Apr 6, 2009 20:59:51 GMT 10
In the long run, George accepts Alanna more fully and gives her more freedom than she could ever had in a marriage to Jon. It's just not usually that much of a factor in who you fall for ... This is a really interesting point. Too often, we view characters as characters, and can be objective in "what's best for them", but people don't work like that. I think Alanna was able to fall out of love with Jon completely because of how long she spent away from him - I wonder what would have happened if she hadn't taken off like she did, either in WWRLAM or in LR.
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opalgirl
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Post by opalgirl on Apr 6, 2009 23:23:31 GMT 10
pineappleyness: I don't doubt he DID love her, but he was in a little rebellious phase and wanted to marry Alanna just to do what * he* wanted.
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Rojo
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Post by Rojo on Apr 7, 2009 1:57:50 GMT 10
Interesting thought, seeing as how Jonathon was King Roald's squire, if I remember correctly. Perhaps this is why Jonathon broke tradition and did not make Roald his squire? Does this remind anyone else of Kelandry? When she is around Neal or Cleon for long periods of time, she is "in love!" with them, but upon seeing them again after a long seperation, there is nothing there for her. Dom, on the other hand, she was with most of the time (except for the winter of her Ordeal) and she was smitten with him almost the entire time. /threadjack
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Post by Rosie on Apr 7, 2009 6:26:06 GMT 10
Does this remind anyone else of Kelandry? When she is around Neal or Cleon for long periods of time, she is "in love!" with them, but upon seeing them again after a long seperation, there is nothing there for her. Dom, on the other hand, she was with most of the time (except for the winter of her Ordeal) and she was smitten with him almost the entire time. /threadjack Interesting! As relating to Jon/Alanna, it strikes a different tone with me. When you're around somebody you find attractive constantly, it heightens everything and you (or I, because I am clearly talking from experience) tend to fall for them more than you would have otherwise. Then, when there's the breather (and Kel has a chance to grow up a bit more), you think, "oh. What was all the fuss about again?" With Alanna, her relationship with Jon was her first, and it was particularly intense. She was irritated with him at first, but I think the break gave her time to think about things clearly, realise their lives were going in different directions, and then that they weren't meant for each other.
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Mirage
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Post by Mirage on Apr 7, 2009 6:39:46 GMT 10
Interesting thought, seeing as how Jonathon was King Roald's squire, if I remember correctly. Perhaps this is why Jonathon broke tradition and did not make Roald his squire? Ah, the best thing to bring to mind while eating instant noodles &I remember there being a point somewhere up there about Josiane being just Jonathan's rebound? Well that got me thinking. Isn't, in purely technical terms, George Alanna's rebound? I mean, I love that they ended up together - but it does seem funny that people often go on about how right they were and how Alanna must have realized that he was the one for her -cue violin- ... when in reality, she probably was just lonely and needed someone and he was there.
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Apr 7, 2009 7:06:46 GMT 10
This is a really interesting point. Too often, we view characters as characters, and can be objective in "what's best for them", but people don't work like that. I think Alanna was able to fall out of love with Jon completely because of how long she spent away from him - I wonder what would have happened if she hadn't taken off like she did, either in WWRLAM or in LR. I think this is where we disagree, I think if Jon had reacted like I thought he would - looking back at their earlier relationship, things might have worked out still. It isn't the first time Alanna badly feared something. If he had taken the time to talk her to her fears and give her time to think about it and time to have her adventures, maybe, he wouldn't have killed their love. The point when he suddenly takes over her life and decisions, before they are even engaged is the point where Alanna's fears get her badly enough to really explode. There would have been a lot of ways things could have gone different if Jon hadn't suddenly ignored her fears that much and played the idiot in a way he wouldn't have dared before that book. (That is the point that felt forced to me) I could have seen something working out, with a bit of waiting a long engagement and that, or with at least a less violent break up. And then the George thing came to fast, and (yes mirage) too much like rebound to me. She ran to him got him to comfort her, and left him like he was nothing to go on further adventures. Again it felt too forced for me, having Liam before George would have made things easier for an older me. I didn't realize all this at first reading. (I was young and kind of starved for love stories while my parents were fighting a pretty dirty seperation)
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rainstormamaya
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Post by rainstormamaya on Apr 7, 2009 8:11:33 GMT 10
I once wrote a whole essay about Alanna/Jon and why it wouldn't work. Kings and Champions: A Rebuttal of the Alanna/Jon Argument (and let me tell you right now that coming up with the title was a whole lot more fun than writing the actual essay!) I definitely agree that the break-up in the desert, while caused by Jon being more of a prat than usual and not irrevocable, gave Alanna time to think and realise it wasn't going to work.
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Maia
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Post by Maia on Apr 7, 2009 11:59:06 GMT 10
I basically agree with what's been said about A/J working well as a first love/fling, but not after. I understand the appeal, and I understand it even post-WWRLAM, though that's when they'd passed the point of no return, since there is something romantic about reading about first love working out (see: The Notebook, Sweet Home Alabama, etc.). But I really do see it as part of the bildungsroman aspect of Alanna's story rather than the endgame.
When I first read the books I was totally on the Alanna/George side of the argument, and I still am to a certain extent, but I have gained an appreciation for Alanna/Jon.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 7, 2009 12:42:31 GMT 10
I think this is a VERY unfair statement about Jon. It's simply not true - Jon made his first physical approach when they were at war - not when Alanna was in a dress. And it's stated that their was more romantic tension between them before she went to Eleni to try her hand with dresses. By the time she's reached her seventeenth birthday, Jon has reached the point where he thinks opposing whatever chemistry they have is ridiculous - which means he was attached to her quite strongly before getting his chance to pounce while she was in a dress. I also think that people are incredibly unfair to Jon during the WWRLAM fiasco. While I tend to think that Prince Jon was a general bully who took Squire Alan for granted, I like the way he treated Alanna up until he started acted spoiled. They treated each other like lovers rather than like knight & squire. Was he stupid for assuming she'd say yes to marrying him? I don't think so. She'd confessed that she loved him, while previously her own feelings seemed to be the thing getting in the way. I don't think it's farfetched for him to think that she would want to marry him now that she's acknowledged that she loves him. Now, I do think his reaction to her actual rejection was spoilt and churlish - but we can't all be perfect. As far as first loves go, I think they did an excellent job of making up and moving on. But then, maybe I'm relating too much, seeing as how I broke off with my first serious boyfriend because he was talking marriage - and then later I introduced him to his the girl he married! LOL! (thank you for the plug, Rosie - you're darling! that was my first TP fic, and possibly my favorite!)
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Post by nicolasophie on Apr 8, 2009 12:54:31 GMT 10
I agree in some ways - I got the impression of Jon being someone who wanted to rebel against the court's pressues and marry the person who he loved - who happened to be Alanna. Almost as if he had picked up her disdain of court life, and wanted to rebel against the superficiality and pressure of it all. His parents got to marry for love - why couldn't he?
I love them in all of their king and champion ways... mmmm
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Apr 9, 2009 13:30:38 GMT 10
Actualy we have earlier proof that he would like to marry her but knew it would be hard. We have a scene in IHOTG where he talks about love and actually says: "I am serious in my way[..]but if I talked of love, you'd run off:" And states about marriage: "Relax I certainly can't talk about marriage in any place." So he was aware of the conflict and with the rest of that talk it felt to me that he'd have proposed then, if he wasn't the Prince and if she wasn't disguised as a boy for a long time still.
Even after the proposal. He told her wants to marry her, she says she wants to think about it but beds him and acts like an engaged woman anyway. Even though the rules of the Bazhir actually are more conservative than the way the palace deals with it. So when we come to the break up it comes down to this: He wasn't totally wrong thinking that she acted like she consented, now that doesn't make him right but it doesn't make her right either. Even Alanna herself acknowledges it to George: "Perhaps I was being falsely proud.[...] Perhaps it wouldn't have done me any harm to go along with him and not make a fuss about asking me first."
What we have here is a clashing of two strong temperamental characters who both didn't act above reproach. And neither did George, according to other instances, George knew the moment Alanna was listening in and they continued that talk that made things between Josiane and Jon sound more serious than they were. He then proceeds to play the concerned lover and tells her: "I'm glad he showed you that nobles are a proud, ungrateful lot, thinkin' of no one but themselves." Excuse me? George proclaimed himself a great friend of Jon and it wasn't right to act in that way the moment a woman is in the middle. Personally I put my best friends over potential love interests. Yes that means if my best friend and I fall for the same guy I stay clear of him, and she'd do the same for me. And I have done that for her before. At this point the authors need to have Alanna end up with someone NOT the Prince who'd NOT become the King was a bit too clear Being a free fighter and married to a former commoner makes Alanna less of the usual fairytale character and more of the sheroe she is. It makes her more real in a way and less cliche, but this part of the book always felt forced to me. It would have been easier for me if George and Alanna hadn't fallen into bed together till after the adventurin, when she came back with the Dominion Jewel, a Shang Dragon as rebound would have made me more comfortable with her.
I am not against the Alanna George pairing, they do well together, but the start of it is too forced and too much of a visible plot device to feel right to me, as I said if they'd gotten together after the dominion jewel, or before her and Jon, great, and the point in time they do ... so not great. - I still like the way things went on and the way the two of them are portrait in the Immortal series, but I always disliked the end of TWWRLM Its not honourable enough from both sides.
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Post by wordy on Apr 9, 2009 15:08:08 GMT 10
I agree that Jon's easily captivated with a pretty face, but I've come to realise that Alanna and Jon's 'relationship' was necessary for both of them to realise what they really wanted in a partner, especially for Alanna. And Jon needed to understand that he needed a partner who could be a queen, not just his lover/wife.
And I think when their relationship started out, it could have mostly been because it was convenient. Jon didn't have quite so much contact with girls as he does now, and he could relate to Alanna/talk to her/be friends as well as having something romantic. So, yeah.
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