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Post by Anaroriel on Apr 4, 2009 10:02:20 GMT 10
As many of you may know, I'm currently taking a class at my university called Love and Eroticism in the Middle Ages. While that does sound like a class all about sex, it actually covers more of how people in the Middle Ages defined love and marriage (I was a little disappointed too ). Anyway, one of the topics we touched on today was how those people view the union of marriage. Judging by the stories that we have read, in which most of the characters completely disregard their spouses in their pursuit of love and many actually consider it a hindrance to their finding love, it is obvious that they didn't consider marriage to be sacred but rather a legal institution for undesputed heirs and possessions. Furthermore, the show of courtly love by knights was rarely towards unmarried women and courtly love was raised as the standard ideal. So that got me thinking. Since Tortall is loosely based on medieval Europe, how did the Tortallans view marriage? Did they view it as a sacred union where they must be faithful to their spouses, or did they see it like they did in the Middle Ages? Is adultery an accepted practice? Would adultery be punishable by the law? Divorce is never mentioned in Tortall either. Did religion have any play in how things are viewed, like it is during the Middle Ages? Thoughts? (ETA: Because I can't spell. ><)
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Post by boosette on Apr 4, 2009 10:11:52 GMT 10
I'm taking a Medieval Women class right now myself - are you using Love, Marriate & Family in the Middle Ages (by Jacqueline Murray) as a text, by any chance?
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Post by Anaroriel on Apr 4, 2009 10:14:03 GMT 10
We're using multiple texts, but not that one. Erotic Tales of Medieval Germany (Albrecht Classen), Tristan, and Love and Eroticism in the Middle Ages (Albrecht Classen).
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Rojo
Queen's Rider
There once was a girl who was told she could, and so she did.
Posts: 660
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Post by Rojo on Apr 4, 2009 10:42:16 GMT 10
There is a quote in Lady Knight that, to me, implied there was divorce. Let me find it...
To me, marriage in Tortall seems like something to be used to guarantee the continuation of a noble house, provide legal heirs, and, in some instances, give people the benefits of protection marriage applies. It seems to be more important in the upper classes, but still considered casual.
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opalgirl
Sergeant
I also answer to Val.
Posts: 1,574
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Post by opalgirl on Apr 4, 2009 10:48:33 GMT 10
In LK, it's mentioned - a friend has my book, so I can't cite it - in the scene where Kel breaks up the fight between two men over a woman at Haven, that women have the right to choose, under the Goddess' law. A woman in the crowd says that's how she got rid of her first husband. Okay, never mind. It's the passage rojo cited while I was typing.
I would imagine then, that there is a divorce option of some kind, for women.
Tammy said somewhere - again, quasi-canon - that women can go to the Goddess's temples for help - they have their court. (Alanna, sez Tammy, could have gone to the temple and fought her father's decision in the court, but she wouldn't've gotten to be a knight that way... just not gone to the convent.)
As to adultery - it's hard to say. Tammy makes offhand comments to it - eg.
In... I think it's LK again, when Cleon tells Kel he's "as good as married"? That means they hold marriage in some regard. I imagine, among the upper classes, marriage has some actual meaning, implying you're not supposed to commit adultery.
There's a line in Squire where Buri says, re: Evin: "He only bought it (a magic stone thing) to see if the ladies he courts have husbands" - or some approximation of that. Again, friend has PoTS books. Buri's comment would imply that if Evin got caught with a married lady, her husband wouldn't just shrug it off and would be angry.
Nobles likely wouldn't react very well to divorce, which may mean it isn't often seen among them.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 4, 2009 15:15:12 GMT 10
I imagine that it has a lot to do with your station and the circumstances of your marriage.
If you're an apprentice and you marry your master's daughter, a divorce could ruin your business. If you're a noble, it could ruin alliances and all sorts of hereditary concerns.
A peasant farmer working someone else's land? A priestess? A hedgwitch? A person being abused by their spouses? I would think that there would be more wiggle room. Obviously if there's a stigma, the stigma isn't with the religion, but with the agreements and bonds of society outside of faith.
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rainstormamaya
Soldier
Helps Kat get her Conte fix
~best known as May~
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Post by rainstormamaya on Apr 5, 2009 9:01:21 GMT 10
I agree, I think it differs by class- Ilane's immortal comment in Squire that it reminds her of horsebreeders making sure that stallions don't cover the wrong mares springs to mind! Tortallan nobles could have had some equivalent of the historical practice of basically buying and selling brides -marriages of convenience or whatever- and that led to a kind of insistence that the marriage contract had to be binding?... And that doesn't occur among most commoners?
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Blade
Message Runner
age and trechery!
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Post by Blade on Apr 6, 2009 9:35:12 GMT 10
The way I would see divorce in Tortall differs on the series (Alanna's time being much more conservative than Aly's) the person's station and financial standings. Just because the custom of divorce exists and is allowed doesn't mean it happens very often. In fact, during Jane Austen's time, although marriage was allowed throughout England, it was almost unheard of.
I have a feeling that divorce was allowed, but almost unheard of and depending on which series we are thinking/speaking of, backed with considerably different levels of support. Right to choose before the Goddess or not.
I would tend to disagree, especially when it comes to a period like the middle ages (or at least a setting based on the middle ages) that for a commoner it was just as important to a noble. Perhaps more so because commoners had to worry about the basic, food, water, shelter, heat, etc, and nobles worried about land, riches and securities. For a commoner getting a divorce could mean the difference between living comfortably and having to resort to prostitution. As it did in our world at one point. I recommend reading A Doll's House the final scene where the main character leaves her husband is a shock, and she admits to not knowing how she will survive.
I'd also like to know -once we establish a divorce theory here- who gets the material possessions? Who takes control of the children? Up until very recently a mother had no rights over her own children if she forefighted a marriage. I wonder how that would work in Tortall? Or would the very liberal, and very conveniently modern politics under Jon afford equal rights?
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anilaurel
Queen's Rider
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Post by anilaurel on Apr 7, 2009 11:03:08 GMT 10
I would like to think the daughters of the goddess would help women that were abused by husbands and welcome in the children as well.
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Post by Anaroriel on Apr 7, 2009 11:08:14 GMT 10
Yes, but what if the father wants the children? In that society I can't imagine a divorce court. The father would get them.
I can't imagine noblewomen getting divorces. It's one thing for commoners who can still pick up a trade, but if a noblewoman is divorced she'll have nowhere to go and live, and she'd have no skills. And I can't imagine a nobleman wanting a divorced woman.
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Mina
Rider Trainee
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Post by Mina on Apr 7, 2009 12:38:13 GMT 10
I think we do have to remember that our form of marriage has a lot to do with religion or well actually it had to do a lot with religion and if you compare marriage rules between religions they vary. In a historical world with more than one God, rules about marriage would certainly be different. The same applies to rules about divorce - I can actually see the daughters of the goddess taking in abused wifes and the children and I cannot see the men protesting too much as long as they get the heir back once he is an adult (so no adopting into a new family if the wife remarries). Tortall's gods and believes are a lot more hands on, and I don't think one would risk the wrath off the goddess by neglecting the counsel of her priestess. Basically I think divorce would in a way be harder, because I think it would only be given for a cause (abuse) not because you fell in love with someoneelse, and I cannot see the daughters of the goddess being taken in by lies. But I do think they'll give shelter to the divorced woman, until they get on their feet again.
When we now say that the men had all rights to the kids and the wife in our history, you cannot forget that it is part of our religious background, too, Eve being made off Adam and being made to serve him as it is often interpreted. If you look around the worlds there are religions that do favour matriarchal structures. While I don't see clear matriarchal structures in Tortall at all, I think the freedom given to the daughters of the Goddess is a good sign of their being a different relationship between the genders, we suddenly have female gods and male gods and you cannot argue like christianity did.
Also an important point in our historical marriage is about children and being sure of the father. With the added benefit of magic and magical charms that prevent conception, another part of the medieval justification and need for marriage.
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