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Post by Rosie on Mar 27, 2009 21:08:36 GMT 10
How much influence do you think Delia and Josiane had in the coronation plot? Discounting Roger's super-secret apocalyptic gate surprise, of course.
Josiane to me seems to have been drafted into the whole affair simply because she caught Jonathan's eye in WWRLAM. The plotters obviously trusted her enough to let her in on the planning, but beyond that?
Delia's the trickier one, clearly, but I'd call her a puppet rather than a villain. Roger uses her initially for her beauty and her proximity to Jonathan, and then for her Eldorne army. I wonder if she thought she was playing both sides initially - whether Roger or Jonathan ended up on the throne, she potentially had a good shot at being Queen. Was this her ultimate aim? Did she love Roger, or power?
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Post by Katty on Mar 27, 2009 21:55:18 GMT 10
I think one of the attractions of Josiane was the potential for a Copper Isles alliance, through friendship or marriage. It would have given Roger a diplomatic and military link, to help solidify his throne. I don't see Roger marrying her himself though.. I see him digging up a distant Conte relative who was too old or stupid to try for the throne, and marrying Josiane to them (Josiane as Maura's father's second wife? Or even jucier - Gary? Weigh him down with an unhappy marriage to distract him from Roger's usurpation?).
Delia, I think, tried to play the game, but got played herself. I think she was a little infatuated with Roger, but far more infatuated with power. Roger never saw her as anything more than a useful pawn, and she was never anything more than a shiny distraction for Jonathan. Once she had a taste of power as Jonathan (and Roger's) mistress, she became increasingly desperate for more. Then it started to slip away, and she tried to cling to it with all she could. I think that explains her friendship with Josiane in LR more than them being the Jilted-by-Jonathan club - Delia probably became friendly with Josiane around the time Josiane was in the Queen's good graces - better to make friends with the potential Queen than be left out altogether (because I'm assuming at this point Roger's super-secret-apocalyptic-gate-suprise hasnt been thought of, because Roald and Lianne are still alive)
Besides, Roger was obviously going to make Alex Queen
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 27, 2009 21:55:56 GMT 10
Really, aside from the possibility of Alex (and only cos he was Roger's snugglebunny) I'd say they were all puppets.
I think Josaine got drafted after she was semi-dumped, and she was probably feeling vindictive and Roger played on it.
Delia was seduced by power. I don't think she cared a whit for either Jon or Roger, merely power and her vanity. And Roger made her feel powerful, showed her power, flattered her, and got her on side.
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Post by Rosie on Mar 27, 2009 22:03:58 GMT 10
I see him digging up a distant Conte relative who was too old or stupid to try for the throne, and marrying Josiane to them (Josiane as Maura's father's second wife? Or even jucier - Gary? Weigh him down with an unhappy marriage to distract him from Roger's usurpation?). Fic this now!!
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Post by Katty on Mar 27, 2009 22:13:59 GMT 10
Maybe if you're good. But which one?
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Post by Rosie on Mar 27, 2009 22:15:46 GMT 10
I'm always good.
The latter one is to die for.
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Post by Lisa on Mar 27, 2009 22:51:20 GMT 10
When I read the thread-title my answer was "yes".
I don't know if I could really call Josiane a conspirator, because she seemd like this little bubble of chaos that they allowed to run rampant as long as she didn't get in the way. Alex didn't seem to care what she did - and I'm pretty sure Roger and Alex wouldn't actually let her IN on all the plotting.
Delia... I imagine that she was much more involved in the conspiracy before Roger's (first) death. And at that time Alex was still a "good guy" (seeing as he had to be in a spell-like state before attacking Alanna, while the second time around he had no qualms). So I've always figured that Delia was the ONLY co-conspirator originally, and - yes, her "job" was to keep Jonathan and the others pre-occupied, but she might have had other things to do as well, behind the scene. For all we know, she was the one who said "OMG, kill the queen NOW!"
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Post by Fenella on Mar 29, 2009 11:20:08 GMT 10
It would have been interesting to see how things panned out, had Roger actually gotten ahold of the throne. I can see Delia getting pushed to the side, her being very much not into that, and deciding to take things into her own hands. Plots to kill Roger? The downside of having allies who are into regicide, is that they are into regicide.
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Post by k4writer02 on Mar 30, 2009 5:46:34 GMT 10
I reread Lioness Rampant today, with this discussion in mind. I think that Delia came into the whole thing as Roger's puppet in _In the Hand of the Goddess_, but his death caused her to break that pattern and start trying to think and act more toward her own ends and goals. After all, she provokes Thom into raising Roger from the grave. Even if she knew Roger was in the Sorcerer's Sleep and it was her job to find a sorcerer powerful enough to "wake" him (and that's a pretty big if), that took some initiative and guts.
I think it's quite clearly Delia who recruits Ralon/Claw (they were neighbors). I'm most influenced by the scene where Roger bursts in on the conspirators, and he's supremely pissed off.
He says: "I wanted no independent action on your parts." He rips into each of them, suggesting that Delia can be sent to Carthak as the consort of snake breeders. That's before he literally casts her aside (she's kneeling prettily in front of him; he throws her to Alex).
He makes it clear that he did not recruit Josiane "I have known you only since my return from the dead, but I understand you well."
When speaking about Ralon/Claw, he tells Delia "Your choice of tools is bad, Delia. He'll betray you when he's done with the thieves."
That's all page 187-190 in my 1997 paperback. It's at the end of the "In the Capital of Tortall" chapter.
But despite all Delia's intrigues, Pierce/the narrator makes it clear that Delia misunderstands Roger's goals.
"The youth [Alex's squire Henrim--and whatever happened to him??] bowed, 'Good luck, my lord. And--long live King Roger!'
'Fool,' Alex whispered when the door closed. Of them all, he alone knew Roger's real plans. He alone knew that those like Delia who planned to steal Jonathan's throne so they could have power were in for a disappointment."
So Delia is both deceived and a deceiver, I think.
I'm curious about something else. I know that Delia is constantly being described as beautiful and delicate, but the way she enchants all of the young knights, except Alex, has always struck me as suspicious. There are several ways to read it--one, that Alex, a man more interested in men, is immune to Delia's feminine wiles. Another way to read it is that her natural charms were enhanced by Roger's magic. Given Alanna's almost unconscious revulsion at Roger's magic, it could explain her dislike of Delia, even beyond embarrassment and some jealousy.
Love spells may be taboo, but Roger dabbles with worse stuff. If Roger cast the spell, wouldn't it be reasonable that Roger's ally (and perhaps bedfellow), Alex, was left unaffected? And wouldn't they wonder why Squire Alan wasn't more interested in her, or about the source of "his" immunity?
Thoughts?
Oh, I totally agree with Fen about regicide.
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Post by Lisa on Mar 31, 2009 7:51:32 GMT 10
I think Henrim is listed on Tammy's character pronunciation guide as Henrim of Tirrsmont. I'll need to flip through POTS to see if he's listed anywhere. There could be some good fic-fodder in that.
I always read that two ways: 1. Alex is off-limits because Roger has plans for him. 2. Alex is off-limits because Roger has plans for him.
The magic idea is interesting... I don't like the idea of taking something away from any powerful female character, good or bad - but it's interesting.
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 31, 2009 7:57:11 GMT 10
I don't know. Some girls just have that spark, you know? Like my best friend is one of those girls who always has several guys interested in her and she's not a slut or anything. I can just imagine if Delia is one of those girls and a slut there would be not problem having all the guys interested in her except for Alex who knows better and Alanna who's straight. *shrug*
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