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Post by Rosie on Mar 11, 2009 22:09:07 GMT 10
During Squire, it struck me that Raoul and Jon weren't close anymore. Raoul is actually very disrespectful; he must have had to attend hundreds of banquets over the years, and yet still feels the need to complain about them to his squire. Perhaps, though, they are the sort of friends who get on in person, but who clash on a professional level.
This is the sort of friendship I think Jon and Alanna maintain - Jon the person seems far more likeable than Jon the king, who will sacrifice his friends' happiness for the greater good. Alanna and Raoul's professions complement one another, and I wonder if that plays a hand in their continued friendship?
Raoul and Gary (best friends by default after Francis died, Jon and Alanna hooked up, and Alex wandered off to the Dark Side) are still good friends (or betting buddies), but they have different interests now, which may be a strain on the relationship.
Thoughts? Is a similar thing likely to happen to the POTS crew once they grow up (more), spread out over Tortall, and start having families? Any BFF there?
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 11, 2009 22:42:50 GMT 10
Perhaps, though, they are the sort of friends who get on in person, but who clash on a professional level. I think that it is probably just that the social thing that is an issue for Raoul and Jon. To me, it seemed more a case of the two of them baiting each other, something they've continually done over the years on this point, but it somehow managed to get out of hand over the Progress. Also as king, Jon has to appear to maintain a bit more of a distance from his friends, especially as they are seen as progressives. As for Kel, I don't think that the avoiding social functions thing is something that can be kept from her, and the two are quite close, so he would be comfortable complaining about it to her. I think the remarks after Lalasa's trial had a bit more of an anti-Jon sentiment, but I think that was more a reflection of how Jon has that dual personality as King. Alanna and Raoul probably spend more time together, and she probably rides with the Own often enough that they are spend more time together too. I think it may be different for the PotS crew, considering that they are probably less likely to take over those high positions that Jon/Alanna/Raoul/Gary hold. Still of course, there will be some separation over time/distance/etc, but I think they wouldn't have the forced barrier that the SotL crew do.
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Post by Rosie on Mar 11, 2009 22:54:11 GMT 10
I don't have the books to check, but didn't Raoul make the comment about not wanting to go to the ball in front of Third Company? I can't remember what he said, exactly, but I do remember thinking it was petulant, and that he should have kept his mouth shut.
Forced barriers is a good point - but I wonder what will happen to Neal and Kel, when he's married with kids, and she's still roaming. I just think a natural barrier happens when you enter different stages of your life to your friends. They might still get on well, but will they still be close? This is all stuff that I keep thinking would be fun to explore in fanfic. I guess I mentally replace Neal with Dom as Kel's best friend later in life, but I don't know if that's because they're cousins or because of existing fanfic.
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 11, 2009 23:05:05 GMT 10
He probably does, and it seems his dislike of social events is quite common knowledge. He tries to find a way to not attend, Jon finds a way for Raoul to attend, and both occasionally win. To me, it sorta makes it seem more like a game the two play over the years, but which sorta blew up in their faces over the Progress.
Actually I think that as a knight, Neal would be more likely to be roaming, even with kids, although he might take a position as a desk knight later, who knows? Dom, however, in my mind is more likely to find some pretty lady and settle down and fall off the radar.
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Post by Rosie on Mar 11, 2009 23:19:33 GMT 10
I'd be a fan of that pattern if they weren't both in their forties, I guess.
I just don't see Dom settling down as quickly as Neal. He can't marry and stay in the Own, which he seems to love. I see Neal as a desk knight, I suppose, a la Gary, though I guess Yuki would want to be a Queen's Lady and would be active herself.
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 12, 2009 7:46:35 GMT 10
Probably wasn't soemthing concious, to my mind.
I dunno, I'd think Yuki would stay on as one of Shinko's ladies, and I don't think that Shinko is going to follow Thayet's lead in that regard as much. But it's probable if/when she becomes Queen.
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Mar 12, 2009 7:50:51 GMT 10
Actually I felt that Raouls disrespectful behaviour actually enhanced the sense of friendship between them. It is a fact that has been often viewed and mentioned in books that friendships of men are often shown in the amount of abuse they jokingly force on each other. For me it shows that the relationship of Jon and Raoul is still one of male friendship instead of that of the commander of the Own to the King. Naturally that blows up on them in the way that it sometimes makes him disrespect the king in a playfull try of getting the upper hand in the game of who will convince whom about the banquet this time around. Remember the adventures they got into when they were younger and how they would make fun of each other and try to get the upper hand in bets and stuff.
What makes his relationship with Jon different than the one with Alanna is the fact, that Jon's rank sometimes forces him to abandon the game when the disrepect becomes too much for his position a King.
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 12, 2009 8:09:32 GMT 10
I think that Jon's 'threat' to Raoul on Progress indicates that they are still close, and is more a subtle warning that he's crossing the line.
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Mar 12, 2009 9:03:08 GMT 10
Yes my words. They are still friends and still funning around but their positions in life force Jon to put his foot down before Raoul crosses the line too far infront of witnesses. Even Alanna kept some of her more outlandish teasing of Jon to the privacy of a small circle because it won't do anyone any good to undermine the King infront of his subjects. It's something else to do it in the smaller circle of friends or subtle enough that the contest stays between the two of them.
What we sometimes forget is that the society of Tortall in all is a modified medieval society - where rank plays a very different role and the need for a certain amount of respect for the nobles is very invaluable for the nobles to hold on to their power and distinction, which makes a lot of the progress so very hard to impliment.
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naxensfancy
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Post by naxensfancy on Mar 12, 2009 10:51:18 GMT 10
I just think a natural barrier happens when you enter different stages of your life to your friends. (SNIP) I guess I mentally replace Neal with Dom as Kel's best friend later in life, but I don't know if that's because they're cousins or because of existing fanfic. I think you make an excellent point here-- it's really, really hard to keep up a friendship when both of you are being pulled in separate directions. It's not that you care about them any less, it's just that....what do you talk about? When Neal needs to talk about the perils of fatherhood, can Kel really relate? Likewise, when Kel has some command burden, it's Dom (or similar) who would understand that, not Neal. The issue with Raoul and Gary is that I still think in his heart of hearts Raoul wants to be friends with Jon, and Jon doesn't get to be Jon all that often. Jon has to be the king.
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 12, 2009 17:00:06 GMT 10
I can see Neal and Kel being pulled apart, we can sort of see that going on during Squire and Lady Knight because they're hardly together. I mean, they're still friends, but with Kel in charge and Neal bogged down with the healers, it just seems like they'll have different interests.
I predict Neal will take over his father's post somewhere down the line. I mean, he can be a knight, but with a family and such he'll want to stay put. So I imagine he'll become a head healer somewhere. Kel, on the other hand, has years and years of wandering and doing all her leader of troops work that she does. And so, eventually, they really won't be as close as they used to be.
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 12, 2009 17:05:18 GMT 10
I dunno, I'd say that Gary and Raoul are still quite close, and they would be the furthest you could get. Gary practically never leaves his desk as PM, and Raoul, well, he's out and about even in the winter months.
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Post by k4writer02 on Mar 13, 2009 13:09:48 GMT 10
This is a really interesting thread! I agree with many of the points that have been made about Raoul's relationship to Jon vs. the Commander of the King's Own relationship to the King. I'm intrigued though, by the question about the Protector of the Small crew. I think Neal and Kel will always be friends, but they will grow in different directions.
I'd like to ask what people think about Roald. Did he form close friendships as a page and squire? I was struck by his diplomacy and distance--carefully sitting at each table, refusing to favor one group too much. Who will he draw close to himself when he becomes King? Who will be in his, for lack of a better term, cabinet? I don't think Kel will be the next King's champion, talented as she is. I do think that she could find herself in the shoes of the training master, though. We see that Kel is a good teacher, even with pupils who would rather not be learning, such as Lalasa. Or, given her experience with the Own, Commanding those men probably wouldn't be a bad job for her either.
In fanon, I've seen a lot of fics where the Conte children are close--if so, perhaps Roald would pick one or both of his brothers to be in a position of power. But even if they aren't emotionally close, Roald might choose to keep them close. He's often characterized as dreamy, but I think he's probably learned politics from the cradle. And he could hardly fail to learn the lesson of Roger and Yolane--people in the family may covet the crown. (Of course, I just read Steven King's _The Eye of the Dragon_ so I'm seeing conspiracies and wrong-brother-as-king in every fandom with a king these days.)
So, any thoughts on Roald and friendship?
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Post by Rosie on Mar 14, 2009 0:34:42 GMT 10
Firstly, yay for you being here! Your Roald points are fascinating. I think Roald is likely to weigh up the very best person for the jobs, rather than whomever he is close to, because that's the way he seems to work. Jon was fortunate in that he made friends with intelligent and capable people, people he could trust in the precarious stages of his becoming king. Roald inherits a far more stable country, but I think he'd be more likely to appoint the politically and technically appropriate people, and force himself to get on with them. He's likely to appoint his siblings - or, indeed, his cousins - only if they're suitably capable for the role. Personally, I hope that means another Naxen as PM
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Mar 14, 2009 9:18:45 GMT 10
I actually think Roald will rely more on his siblings than on friends he might have made as a page or squire. The big difference between Jon and Roald is that Jon had no siblings and was 'forced' to reach out to make friends. At the same time I can see him as slightly coddled in the early years of his time as a page (some of the descriptions of the entourage of Gary, Alex, Francis and Raoul) as well as the reactions during the Sickness). But Jon's experience might also been a factor in Roalds choice to keep a bit more aloof from his classes. Gary and Raoul are the only friendships without any taint, Francis died , Alanna betrayed him in a small way and then had him help cover for her, Alex betrayed him in a mayor way and nearly destroyed the Kingdom. Could Alex have that kind of power and destructiveness if he hadn't been close to the Prince and the Family?
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Post by ubiquitous on Mar 14, 2009 9:33:21 GMT 10
Also, I think a lot of the conservative/progressive issues are something that also causes Roald to avoid displaying friendship in the way Jon did, and instead prefers to appear neutral. Jon put his friends in positions of power and now he has to try and keep other positions in the hands of conservatives to keep the balance. Roald seems to be intent on showing his neutrality, as a way of showing that he isn't with 'a side' as such.
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Post by Rosie on Mar 15, 2009 8:46:44 GMT 10
We don't really know much about his siblings in canon, though. They might all be traded off for convenient alliances, a la Kalasin. They might be utterly useless at politics, and fancy teaching, or spying, or something. I maintain Roald'll continue the diplomatic appointments of his father's later years; if that includes his relatives, so be it.
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Post by pineappleyness on Mar 31, 2009 20:49:35 GMT 10
I think that Raoul's hatred of social events would've been common knowledge, so he would've been poking fun at himself a little bit too.
I remember reading somewhere that Tammy said the four of them (Alanna, Jon, Raoul, and Gary) are still good friends and catch up when they can, it's just hard to show much of that in the books because it's not related to the main plot.
I think that Jon's friends would be relaxed around him in private and they'd all get on well. Then he'd go and order them to do something (like force them to attend a social event) and they'd understand why he's making them do it and be annoyed at the same time. They'd show him respect in public and set a good example, and then go and put a frog in his bed or something later.
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Post by nicolasophie on Apr 6, 2009 11:30:46 GMT 10
Excuse me while I be a nerd (I have most of what Tammy has said on Sheroes saved to my HDD) Also, in Trickster's the "omnipotent narrator" mentioned that Alanna holds the power of the Crown when the King and Queen aren't in presence. (Will find quote once i'm back at home). Feel free to comment, in class now, will comment later
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Mina
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Post by Mina on Apr 7, 2009 12:53:50 GMT 10
this is a good point. When we are young we often think good friendship means being together as much as possible or at least in contact all the time ( as being in contact has become very easily). When we get older and all start our own lives and carreers this changes. My very best friend in the world studies in Wales. I haven't seen her in person since I think New Year or about that date. We haven't talked on the phone since early february. Hell due to some life related issues we have only exchanged a handfull of sms and mails since then. But we trust each other and the very big thing about our friendship is the fact that it works even when we cannot connect much for a few months. True friends are the onmes that won't grudge you a time of silence and that can always connect again in seconds once they do talk.
Now put that in a time when travelling took days to weeks, letters were slow and there was no telephone or internet and talking through magic was exhausting and a dangerous waste of resources during a war. I still see a connection and news update between Alanna and Jon being possible through his status as the Voice, but apart from that friends that were working and friends that had important issues abroad, had long periods of silence between them.
And we don't get to see too many of the domestic scenes either, because they don't have much to do with the plot.
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Post by nicolasophie on Apr 8, 2009 17:23:10 GMT 10
My best friend went to high school with me, but we've gone to different unis. I don't see her very often at all, but i can pick up a phone and it's like we've never been apart. What I love about her is that she knows me 100% - my flaws, and my good points - and nothing I will ever do or say can ever change her opinion of me. I like to think that Gary/Raoul/Jon/Alanna are like that - they have the shared history, AND they still get along, they miss each other, but the connection will always be there. I can imagine them getting old, Alanna and Raoul retiring from the field, and them sitting by the fire one night laughing and reminiscing about what they got up to in their page and squire days. Training to be knights, being there when parents died, trying to run the country by themselves- they were formative experiences, and they shared them together, and i'd like to believe that bond will never fade It's something that marks them out as different, and they can have other friends, but no one can ever replace each other in their hearts
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