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Post by boosette on Apr 7, 2009 5:11:46 GMT 10
For the sake of this discussion (at least to start), concrit is active criticism of a story, delivered thoughtfully and respectfully without the use of inflammatory language. What it isn't is meta-y discussion of a story in a place where the writer can see and participate in said discussion (such as the comment or review section).
In some ways this is the natural child of the reviews thread and the "unpopular opinions" thread - I think it's distinct enough from the issue of the review to merit its own thread.
I look at fanfiction.net's attitude toward the review system, that it's ideally for constructive criticism (concrit, oddly enough) has been a large influence on the almost universal-within-the-pierce-fandom (greater fandom?) perception that concrit is awesome and writers should be grateful for it.
I think whether concrit is actually awesome or even welcome and whether a writer is actually grateful for it depends far more on the writer and their relationship with their work than it has to do with anything relating to the reviewer.
Many writers are finished with their stories once those stories have been posted - they've written them, they've sent them through beta (where they receive edits and critique from people they know and trust, rather than from Reader #316), and may well be sick of the blasted thing. For these writers, there may well be no interest in concrit from their readers - they placed the story in a public space to be read, and commented upon, but the story is through and the author's relationship with it - beyond removal of typos or corrections of the odd comma splice - is done. (These writers in my experience also tend to be of the "write the whole thing, beta the whole thing, edit the whole thing, then post" school of operation.) In my experience concrit for this type of writer is fairly well useless.
For others, who in my experience also tend to post WIPs as they're being written, concrit may be useful, because it may in fact take the place of beta-reading or otherwise be an influence on how that writer plots or characterizes. That it may indeed effect the outcome of the story. That doesn't necessarily mean that the writer or the story will be the better for it, just that they may be affected.
I'm of the mind that a person's writing does not improve through concrit, but through writing - and not just creative writing but also business writing, academic writing, email, online-journaling and blogging, forum posting - through interaction with words in any manner. That it's experience, not advice, that hones a writer's skill.
(And some people don't care to improve. Their experience with hobby-writing is just as valid as anyone else's experience with hobby writing - and I think they have the right to call a moratorium against concrit of their work where they can see it, if that concrit is making their hobby less fun. They have the right to ask that their squee not be harshed, and the polite thing to do is conform to their wishes and not harsh their squee.)
Thoughts on the tl;dr?
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Post by Rosie on Apr 7, 2009 6:13:02 GMT 10
I've received some really snotty comments that I am loathe to call con-crit (on account of it barely being constructive) in my time. I guess whether I take it on board or not is how useful I find it - it's often only useful for one story.
On the other hand, a couple of reviews that I received from Lea have stuck in my head, and I can definitely say there was a change in my writing in general after I read them. So, they were defining reviews, I guess, and they came as I was more interchangeable in my writing style - I feel I'm setting more of a distinctive fingerprint now.
I can't say how I'd react if I got another similar review now, though I am not somebody who thinks of a story as finished. I go back over stories and edit lines years later, so I guess I'm somebody who it's always useful for? I certainly don't find it preferential over most other kinds of review.
As a reviewer, I used to try and pick out things people could improve on, but tend now just to pick out bits I liked.
For clarity's sake, I fit into the mould of hobby writer.
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Mirage
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Post by Mirage on Apr 7, 2009 7:06:41 GMT 10
I'm of the mind that a person's writing does not improve through concrit, but through writing - and not just creative writing but also business writing, academic writing, email, online-journaling and blogging, forum posting - through interaction with words in any manner. I agree with the first part of that, but not that it improves by any interaction with words. Sure, writing a lot does increase the overall level of the way you put words together - but each of the things you mentioned are areas in themselves, and improving the way you handle and phrase one, might not really translate into others. Like I can fire off a very professional business letter, but that's not going to make it any easier to stay inside word limits for drabbles. &back to the topic...^^" - I think CC does make a difference, but it's only the truly worthwhile comments that last beyond a single piece. And you're right, it really depends on the person giving it (has anyone ever been in the situation of receiving criticism from someone who can barely string their own sentences together?) But really, my biggest issue on the topic is when I need CC, and people don't deliver. Time after time, I've sent pieces over to friends for comments & edits (wait, does that count as beta-ing instead?) - just to have it sent back with "aw cute, it's good, no changes". It's made even more infuriating by the fact that I know there are sentences that should be torn apart in there and can't do anything about it because sometimes you need a second critical eye.
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Post by Anaroriel on Apr 7, 2009 7:17:37 GMT 10
I think you're right to a certain extent: it does depend on how the writer receives the concrit. However, I also think it depends on how the concrit is delivered. If it's done in a kind tone, I think the writer will more likely take it seriously and actually consider it versus "This sucks because you obviously can't have a talking dragon (did you even read the books? Only DAINE can understand them) and you use the word "beautiful" too much. You need to buy a thesaurus." (Only an example, I know others can understand dragons)
I personally like concrit. I know my work isn't perfect, but sometimes I can't find or see the imperfections myself. When someone takes the time to point them out to me (in a kind manner) I'm actually honored. I feel nervous when people only say "yay! Good job" because I can't tell if they're just being mindlessly encouraging and actually thinking it's crap.
Currently I'm enrolled in a Fiction writing class and we get feedback from everyone in the class including the teacher. I think my writing has improved tons from this, a lot more than just my hobby writing on its own. So I think concrit is useful if you want to improve. If you don't and you only write for fun and you don't care if it's not as good as it could be, it's fine if you don't appreciate or want it.
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Rojo
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There once was a girl who was told she could, and so she did.
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Post by Rojo on Apr 7, 2009 8:01:46 GMT 10
How do you define a hobby writer?
Yep.
For me, the harsher the better because (a) if someone tells me I will never be a decent writer, I will do everything I can to prove them wrong (this is how I won NaNo) and (b) if the comment is received on ff.net, then I must truly have done something wrong to warrant someone to actually comment on something.
However, I realize most people's opinions on this differ from mine.
This applies for me also.
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rainstormamaya
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Post by rainstormamaya on Apr 7, 2009 8:22:29 GMT 10
See, I only tend to use a beta when I'm working on a fic exchange entry or know there's something wrong, but I can neither put my finger on it nor correct it to my own satisfaction. I do have one long WiP which, yes, could probably use a beta- but finding a beta for a Garth Nix/LotR crossover is really quite hard, because I need a beta I can trust to do my job of checking it over and pointing out the errors better than I can. I have one particular reviewer who leaves me thoughtfully written small essays of concrit, bless him, and has never held back on telling me when I'm screwing up and when I need to rewrite (there was a battle scene that didn't work.) His input definitely affects the story for the better, and I do act on his advice, but I wouldn't say it takes the place of beta-reading.
[quoteI'm of the mind that a person's writing does not improve through concrit, but through writing - and not just creative writing but also business writing, academic writing, email, online-journaling and blogging, forum posting - through interaction with words in any manner.[/quote]
I definitely agree that writing helps. Practise makes perfect, as it were. However, I would say that concrit helps too- I know I've had a lot of very good advice and gentle suggestions that something or other doesn't quite work and I shouldn't do it, and it's helped me improve. (A lot.)
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Post by boosette on Apr 7, 2009 8:35:31 GMT 10
I too, only reliably seek out a beta when I'm writing for an exchange - it was seeing how much two of my three yuletide fics turned out in comparison to the third (original assignment, finished a couple hours before the deadline & no time for beta) and my other fic on the whole that convinced me of the value of a beta. Even if it's just someone to read the fic through and say, "you're not delusional; it does indeed not suck" or "oh god my eyes burn it".
I would be snapping that up if I had read LotR.
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anilaurel
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Post by anilaurel on Apr 7, 2009 9:27:28 GMT 10
When it comes to concrit, I always point out some things that were really good about the fic. It hurts if someone doesn't show that they actually think it is good.
I agree with Anororiel, just saying loved it for every fic/chapter makes me think they are just reviewing for the sake of reviewing.
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Maia
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Post by Maia on Apr 7, 2009 12:33:24 GMT 10
I used to concrit a lot, and I still do sometimes (it's just that I don't read much fic anymore unless it's specifically recommended by someone I know). I do think that concrit is helpful, for almost all writers - I agree that writing more is the best remedy, but I do think that if you have a specific area that you want to improve on, you can focus your writing toward that area to try to improve, whether you do so consciously or not. Like Ana said, it's why writing classes or workshops are so popular - most writers do want to improve. And sure, concrit can sting sometimes, but I do feel like it absolutely helps to foster growth as a writer.
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Post by Lindsay on Apr 7, 2009 14:13:17 GMT 10
I used to have the habit of leaving long-winded, page-long responses to fics that I thought were really in need of constructive criticism. This practice has since left a very bad taste in my mouth. On one hand, I can still justify my outrage at the prevalence of what I deemed "badfic" in the TP fandom: I was among the younger writers at the time, primarily leaving these sorts of reviews when I was around fourteen years old. I was horrified that people that were older than me or around my age lacked the common sense to write coherently, with something that resembled grammar and a plot. If I was capable of producing something that (while in no terms was amazing) could at least utilize proper English, then certainly everyone else should be able to write at the same level as I could. So I would leave scathing reviews, diatribes that were often longer than the fic itself, in an attempt to "help" the author. I targeted stories that were horrible, with almost no redeeming qualities, that I could completely pick apart and point out everywhere that the author went wrong.
A lot of those authors didn't continue to write fanfiction. While I'm not going to completely blame myself for discouraging some fledgling writers, my negative and condescending attitude certainly didn't help anyone become better writers. Instead of trying to rewrite their stories to make them better, I saw many authors put their stories on indefinite hold or delete them entirely. What might have been a fun endeavor for them initially turned to embarrassment at my and other's less-than-enthusiastic reception of their stories. I had a mixed amount of responses from people I left reviews for. Some appreciated the effort and I was asked to beta-read a few times. Others... did not appreciate my "help" so much.
Writing bad fanfiction never hurt anyone. While it may be annoying to sift through the loads of nonsense written by a preteen who can't form a sentence to save her life, it won't kill me, and it won't kill anyone else either. Let the kids have their fun, and for god's sake, don't discourage them from writing. If they ask for help, feel free to point them in the right direction, but never give them the indication that they can't improve. No one is hopeless. Age and practice will make one a better writer.
Constructive criticism helps me-- I'm one of the post-as-you-go WIP type writers Candice mentioned, who adjusts her writing based on feedback. Most of it is minor things, typo and grammar fixing, but I've rewritten things before when I've been called out on my inconsistency. I don't think that it necessarily is helping me to become a better writer, but it definitely helps my work become a better finished project. My writing has improved through practice and experience, but my posted work has improved through advice.
Now, I don't write "constructive criticism" any more unless it's specifically asked for or I just want to call attention to something minor, like a typo. I don't feel it's necessary or wanted and that it would be a disservice to most who are just starting. I feel like positive feedback would help a writer more than negative feedback-- let them know what they're doing right rather than what they're doing wrong.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 8, 2009 13:35:20 GMT 10
It's strange, but it really all depends on my mood. I only have about half of my stuff beta-read, so if it's something I pored over and got other people to help me on and I received concrit, I'm a little less open to it.
If it's something I rushed and posted and there's concrit, I either listen and learn or feel like the ultimate failure in writing.
I'm a manic-depressive hobby writer, I think. ^_^;;
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Post by Katty on Apr 8, 2009 14:40:24 GMT 10
ROFL!! ♥
I tend to share any constructive criticism I get with whoever is betaing my fic, to see what their thoughts on it are. If they agree, I consider it. If not, its usually ignored. That said, an overwhelming number of my stores are one-shots (committment issues, anyone?) so I dont tend to get CC beyond "you missed a comma".
I REALLY hate it when people try to correct your grammar and they're wrong, but try to justify it by saying something like "I should know I am really awesome at English!!/ My dad is an English teacher/I wrote the dictionary!!"
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Post by iridescentdaisies on Apr 8, 2009 16:47:46 GMT 10
Hmm. It depends.
I don't like to leave concrit when a fic is obviously done or I imagine the author won't want to hear it. It's just a waste of time and energy and it often seems nit-picky. At the same time, I do like to leave some sort of constructive comments, at least on longer fics. But if an author has a decent fic and asks for concrit (especially if I'm a friend of her and it's on a forum) I definitely try to come up with something even if it's just a little something.
I generally like to receive it as I tend to post fairly unfinished work (since I'm usually posting in forums, in a large part for the purpose of receiving concrit) and it can really help. A selfish part of me likes receiving it just because I know the person has actually read the story -- I've had too many reviews of "PMS!" or "it's good" posted thirty seconds after I posted. When I'm not really looking for it, I sort of shrug it off.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 8, 2009 22:05:47 GMT 10
OMG, I'm so completely with you! That drives me up a wall.
The other thing I hate is when people are highly critical of what they consider to be IC - especially if it's fanon characterization. (not so much in this fandom as others.) But I guess all that's better than "who's this Wyldon person you always write about?" ^_^;;
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