|
Post by devilinthedetails on May 24, 2022 3:33:02 GMT 10
So I have been doing a re-read of the POTS series, and on my latest re-read of Squire, I got to wondering how common it is for squires to fail the Ordeal of Knighthood. On most of my previous reads of the series, I had the impression that failures were relatively rare because everyone was so shocked that Joren died in the Chamber (even Kel is shocked, it seems to me), and Wyldon even resigns because there are two failures in one year, which he claims have never happened before in conversation with Kel.
However, on this latest re-read, it did jump out to me that Buri knew it was a bad sign for Vinson to want an audience with the monarchs or even to specifically ask for anything after the Ordeal. So, that made me wonder if failures and confessions like Vinson's were more common. Common enough at least for Buri to have a basis of comparison like "Yeah, it's a bad sign when this happens," which suggests some level of familiarity with the experience. Basically, I am wondering if perhaps failures and post-Ordeal confessions aren't that uncommon (maybe they don't happen every year but every handful of years or so), and what is really rare is a death in the Chamber or multiple failures in one year?
What are your thoughts and theories about this? I'd be interested to hear them!
|
|
mageprincess
Squire
books, books books!!!
Posts: 1,133
Gender: Female
|
Post by mageprincess on Jun 5, 2022 16:47:09 GMT 10
I feel like it's definitely not super common for multiple failures in one group of squires. But they say fairly frequently that the Chamber hammers at your flaws and cracks them open. People like Vinson and Joren were always prime candidates for failure and death becuase of who they are generally.
The characters are always saying that no one really knows what the Chamber does or how it works, but it seems pretty clear that it plays on your fears and your flaws. Kel in particular, her biggest fear is not being able to save people, so she has to live through several scenarios where that is the case without breaking. I'm a little fuzzy on Alanna, but I think the Chamber used her ordeal to its advantage perhaps even more than it did Kel's.
|
|
|
Post by Seek on Jun 22, 2022 20:14:14 GMT 10
So I have been doing a re-read of the POTS series, and on my latest re-read of Squire, I got to wondering how common it is for squires to fail the Ordeal of Knighthood. On most of my previous reads of the series, I had the impression that failures were relatively rare because everyone was so shocked that Joren died in the Chamber (even Kel is shocked, it seems to me), and Wyldon even resigns because there are two failures in one year, which he claims have never happened before in conversation with Kel. However, on this latest re-read, it did jump out to me that Buri knew it was a bad sign for Vinson to want an audience with the monarchs or even to specifically ask for anything after the Ordeal. So, that made me wonder if failures and confessions like Vinson's were more common. Common enough at least for Buri to have a basis of comparison like "Yeah, it's a bad sign when this happens," which suggests some level of familiarity with the experience. Basically, I am wondering if perhaps failures and post-Ordeal confessions aren't that uncommon (maybe they don't happen every year but every handful of years or so), and what is really rare is a death in the Chamber or multiple failures in one year? What are your thoughts and theories about this? I'd be interested to hear them! IDK, but I think the Buri observation is a good catch. I wonder if it might not be a 'bad sign' as in indicative of failure but if, on coming out of the Chamber, a candidate immediately wants something or an audience, perhaps people are aware it is a task, and tasks usually mean that there is something that needs to be set to rights. Hard to say. We know as the readers that Alanna is one such case, but obviously due to the fact people can't talk about the Chamber, it's probably never really mentioned. Scattered thoughts: 1. I find it very implausible that of the entire history of Tortallan knight-candidates since the first Conte king, Joren and Vinson are the only ones that inflexible. Which is to say, I agree with you that failures can't be that rare. 2. Multiple failures in a year being unprecedented seems to make sense to me as the best interpretation, either way. I feel that if failures were all that common, much less well-advertised: There's a note from Kel that it's Neal's imagination, but I feel that of all people, Neal would know, so there must be some basis to his claim that there have been deaths and squires driven mad - but Kel thinking Neal is overthinking it likely also agrees with you that these aren't common. So yeah, happens enough to be known, and just rare enough that squires dread it but regard that as an extreme outlier and have fear of the unknown.
|
|
|
Post by devilinthedetails on Jul 2, 2022 11:43:22 GMT 10
mageprincess, yeah, it doesn't seem to be super common for multiple squires in one year to fail their Ordeal. I think that is part of why Wyldon retires even. That he at least thinks/says that there have never multiple failures in one year before. Which I guess could mean there have never been as many bad apples as there were Joren's year. The Chamber does seem to have a knack of detecting flaws and then testing them to discover if the person undergoing the Ordeal cracks. I do wonder how much any of the Tortall characters (even those who survive the Ordeal and pass it) truly understand it because it is almost this higher power that passes judgment according to standards that aren't necessarily human. There is the side of the Chamber that could be seen to judge a potential knight's morality (in terms of making Vinson suffer for his assaults on women and driving him to confess his crimes) but we definitely do meet knights in Tortall who don't appear to be very moral and don't adhere to the Code of Chivalry. So, it seems that some immoral people come out of the Ordeal fine, and others don't. I've also always questioned how much of a role flexibility does play despite Raoul's words about that being a large part of why Joren failed because arguably both Alanna and Kel are fairly inflexible people in their own ways and the Chamber likes them both well enough to grant them special visions of quests they need to fulfill. So I agree with you that it seems to be a case where none of the characters really understand the Chamber (even those who survive the Ordeal and are granted special visions by the Chamber) which in a way makes the Chamber and the Oreal all the more terrifying. Seek, Ooh, that is a great interpretation of Buri's comment that I didn't even think of. We know from Alanna and Kel that the Chamber is willing to grant new knights tasks and visions so perhaps there is a bit of a history in Tortall of new knights requesting audiences when they have been granted those sort of missions. So, the collective reaction becomes, "Oh no, what is it this time?" I could see that and it makes a lot of sense. More and more, I am thinking that failures as a whole can't be that rare, because the Ordeal is supposed to be this harrowing test of someone's fitness for knighthood and there isn't much point to having that Ordeal if failures almost never occur. It also makes the Chamber less of an intimidating entity if failures were extremely rare. That is a good bit of dialogue from Neal and Kel. I think Neal is probably right about the Chamber being a law unto itself (not really being human in its morality or sense of justice), beyond the understanding of mortals (hence part of how it can scare would-be knights so much), and does have the power to kill squires (as we see with Joren), and to drive them mad (as we see to some extent with Vinson). At the same time, though, Kel is right that plenty of squires emerge from the Chamber to become knights. Including Kel, Neal, and all their friends. As well as all of Alanna's friends. Really of all the named characters in Kel and Alanna's time as pages and squires, I think Joren and Vinson are the only two that are mentioned as failing. So it does seem that most squires pass their Ordeals to become knights but there are some failures and when the failures do occur they are terrifying because the squires die or can be driven insane and the Chamber itself is this power that nobody can fully comprehend. Putting the pieces together in that way makes a lot of sense to me. At least as much sense as the Chamber can make!
|
|
mageprincess
Squire
books, books books!!!
Posts: 1,133
Gender: Female
|
Post by mageprincess on Jul 4, 2022 23:26:03 GMT 10
devilinthedetails I honestly think that squires probably need to be both flexible and inflexible in order to survive the Ordeal. Kel is probably a good example. She's stubborn and determined to succeed, but the Chamber also forces her to perhaps recognise that she simply isn't going to save everyone, that she could get herself crippled and then be able to save no one. She acknowledges this (flexibility) but it isn't going to make her change her mind or stop her from trying to save everyone she possibly can (inflexibility). On the other hand, if Joren was confronted with some of his most deeply ingrained beliefs, and the Chamber honed in on them and cracked them open, his unwillingness to adapt and grow is what ultimately would be the end of him. Same with Vinson. The Chamber would've immediately zeroed in on his abusive behaviours and just gone in.
|
|
|
Post by devilinthedetails on Jul 5, 2022 1:13:35 GMT 10
devilinthedetails I honestly think that squires probably need to be both flexible and inflexible in order to survive the Ordeal. Kel is probably a good example. She's stubborn and determined to succeed, but the Chamber also forces her to perhaps recognise that she simply isn't going to save everyone, that she could get herself crippled and then be able to save no one. She acknowledges this (flexibility) but it isn't going to make her change her mind or stop her from trying to save everyone she possibly can (inflexibility). On the other hand, if Joren was confronted with some of his most deeply ingrained beliefs, and the Chamber honed in on them and cracked them open, his unwillingness to adapt and grow is what ultimately would be the end of him. Same with Vinson. The Chamber would've immediately zeroed in on his abusive behaviours and just gone in. That makes a lot of sense. I like that analysis/interpretation. Thanks for the insight!
|
|
|
Post by katanasundancer on Aug 21, 2022 2:04:52 GMT 10
I feel like the shock of Joren and Vinson is the nature of their failures. It's not just that they failed. It's how, and *why*.
Vinson's crimes are harrowing, not just for Kel. For Wyldon, it's a blow to his teaching - that someone who could do such things - specifically, who had *already done* such things - got all the way through training, got so close to a knighthood he didn't deserve...
And Joren *died*. I feel like deaths in the Chamber, although obviously not unheard of, are rarer than failures where the candidate lives.
As for Buri knowing it's a bad sign when they want an audience - I feel like you don't need a lot of them to happen for it to be memorable. It may only have been a few, but it sticks in the mind.
|
|
|
Post by Seek on Aug 28, 2022 10:01:43 GMT 10
A side issue is that I wonder if the Chamber actually punishes...if the flexibility question is not exactly quite right, and the Chamber is powerfully concerned with some sort of 'natural' divine moral law. (Going to be honest that this is going out on a limb as q-canon has Pierce directly say that Joren died because he was too rigid.)
I feel like the Chamber insisting that Kel act on Blayce was likely because of the necromancy element. If divine right of kings is an actual thing in Tortall (as in the world), then Roger would've been violating that by seeking to usurp the throne, which explains why the gods seem to have pitched in on Alanna's side (the vision she had of all the gods.)
Because the thing is, we know the Chamber let Alex live. So that's kind of interesting.
|
|