Post by devilinthedetails on Aug 14, 2020 3:09:36 GMT 10
This thread is an expansion of the conversation that began in the hazing thread I created earlier. I am interested in this topic and the points that were made in the other thread. So much so that I determined the issue and discussion merited their own thread.
I think my biggest issues are 1) Tortall seems to accomplish in decades radical education and literacy shifts that were achieved in our world through centuries and 2) Tortall has achieved those changes without any of the comparable technological advancements, social/religious developments, and economic upheavals that drove those education and literacy shifts in our world.
So, to me, it almost becomes not plausible or even possible that all the changes Tammy wants us to believe have occurred have actually done so or if they have occurred that the social, political, and economic changes in Tortall would be so seismic that our point of view characters like Kel would have to notice them in a more than passing way. Like we would need to see the essential nature of society radically shifting from the rural and the agrarian to the urban and the industrial for anything approaching universal literacy and education to be feasible and not just a really failed and anachronistic endeavor on Jon and Thayet’s part.
I do find the passage that Lisa mentioned in the other thread with Gary and Alanna in this regard pretty insightful, so I do want to quote it in full:
"First class is reading and writing,” he told her.
“But I know how to read and write!” Alanna protested.
“You do? Good. You’d be surprised at how many noblemen’s sons can’t. Don’t worry, young Trebond.” A grin lit his face. “I’m sure the masters will find something for you to do.” (Alanna The First Adventure, pg. 37.)
From Gary’s remark we learn that Gary sees it as something of a pleasant surprise that Alanna can read, suggesting that many sons of the nobility can’t read. This impression is confirmed when he goes on to suggest that she’ll be shocked by how many sons of the nobility can’t read. Now it’s possible that Gary is wrong about this, but he is speaking from his own experience, the narrative overall treats him as a clever character who is a reliable source of information for Alanna, and he is the son of the Prime Minister of Tortall so it makes sense that his knowledge of this would be reasonably well rooted in reality.
It’s also a description that is fairly consistent with my understanding of the early medieval era where it wasn’t uncommon for members of the nobility to be unable to read or write. By the late medieval era, it would be rarer to come across a noble (particularly a male noble) who couldn’t read, but for the early medieval era that could be quite believable as far as my knowledge indicates. (Disclaimer: I am interested in history but not an actual historian.)
The way Alanna’s reading and writing teachers also test her reading and writing skills also suggest that they think it is entirely possible that she would be illiterate, which tends to support Gary’s assertion. Therefore, I’d say that all the evidence points to Gary being accurate in his assessment that it is relatively rare (rare enough to be remarked upon as a positive) when a son of the nobility shows up to page training literate.
That would make Gary and Alanna the exceptions that prove the rule. Why are they exceptions? I think Gary is exceptional because he is the heir of arguably the second most powerful man in Tortall after King Roald and Alanna is the exception because her father was a scholar who placed a high priority on being literate and education. In my opinion, the following conversation tends to confirm that overarching impression:
“In your free time. Here we go. Mathematics. Can you do figures too?”
“Some,” she admitted.
“A regular scholar,” said Alex, who had caught up with them, laughing.
Alanna shook her head. “No. But my father is very strict about book learning.”
“He sounds a lot like my father in that respect,” Gary said dryly. (Alanna The First Adventure, pg. 38)
This conversation basically tells us that Alanna being able to read, write, and solve basic mathematical problems is sufficiently uncommon enough that Alex jokes about her being a scholar. It also essentially states that characters like Gary and Alanna are exceptions to typical standards of literacy and education among their peers because their fathers put a significant emphasis on book learning presumably because Alanna’s father is a respected scholar and Gary’s is Prime Minister.
By the time that Kel is a page, pages seem to arrive at the palace for training already able to read, write, and perform basic arithmetic. That is a significant change, but it is to me still a plausible one if the monarchs (Jon and Thayet) greatly value and prioritize education. Nobility would be a class of people that could most easily have the resources to educate their children at a young age (being able to afford books that have to be very costly prior to the advent of a printing press and able to pay a tutor to instruct their children). If Jon and Thayet are emphasizing the importance of literacy and education among the nobility, this class of people will also have a high incentive and desire to ensure that their children are educated and literate so as not to be ostracized or objects of scorn in higher society. On a whole, that change is plausible to me and signals perhaps a shift into a later medieval era. Perhaps that shift occurring in decades is fast, but to me it is not impossible and doesn’t snap my suspension of disbelief in any way. I don’t really have any trouble accepting it at all.
I also don’t have any issues accepting the creation of the Royal University in Tortall since I think it is a good way for Tortall to educate their own mages and scholars beyond what is offered at the City of the Gods and to prevent the potential brain drain to Carthak that could have occurred with talented Tortallan mages and scholars choosing to study in Carthak as there wasn’t really a comparable option available in Tortall until Jon and Thayet’s reign.
This was one of Jon and Thayet’s educational reforms that made sense to me and was consistent with what a medieval monarch could conceivably do. Oxford University dates from as far back as 1096 (making it the oldest university in the English-speaking world), for example, and Cambridge was founded in 1209 and received a royal charter from King Henry III in 1231. So, Tortall having its own university created under the auspices of Jon and Thayet is totally plausible to me and enough to make them achievers of significant educational reform for Tortall by itself. This is a major educational milestone for Tortall all on it’s own regardless of anything else.
My biggest source of disbelief is the schools that Jon and Thayet have apparently set up all over the realm to attempt universal education and literacy. It is just almost comically out of place to me in a medieval milieu where the printing press according to Tammy herself has yet to be invented and as far as we can see the magical equivalent of this technological device doesn’t exist either. In our own world, the printing press makes its appearance in Western Europe in the late medieval era (circa 1440) thanks to Guttenberg.
It’s plausible, therefore, that Tortall if it is in the equivalent of a late medieval stage would have the capacity to create a printing press or even through contact with the Yamanis could import such a technology (the Chinese in our real world invented the printing press centuries before its appearance in Western Europe, so that kind of cultural exchange could be possible in Tortall even if it didn’t happen in the same way in our own world). Yet nothing in Kel’s books suggests the development of a printing press in Tortall and if I recall correctly Tammy has stated in her interviews that no printing press exists in Tortall.
My personal view is that simply put a system of universal education is not only very unfeasible but borderline impossible to achieve without the invention of the printing press or its magical equivalent. Even with the invention of the printing press, it is only after the industrial revolution and well into the twentieth century that a true push for anything approaching universal literacy occurs on a large scale in our world. (Some smaller groups such as the Puritans do push for universal literacy before that in the seventeenth century and do establish colleges and schools consistent with that in their American colonies, but these groups are limited in number and only appear after the advent of the printing press in the western world makes their religious doctrines that motivate this desire for literacy possible. Without the printing press, it can very much be argued that the Protestant Reformation does not occur, and that the fringe group of Puritans never exist and create their schools in New England.)
So basically Tortall is accomplishing in decades without the printing press or its magical equivalent what it took developed nations in our own world centuries to achieve. Jon and Thayet in this regard act like twentieth century progressives rather than medieval monarchs, and the one invention, the printing press, that could begin to make any of this radical change plausible or possible is stated by Tammy not to exist in Tortall. I’ll just flatout say that it is totally unbelievable to me that 1) Jon and Thayet would attempt such a venture that just screams “anachronism” to me and 2) that they would meet any sort of significant success in this enterprise.
How much success do Jon and Thayet meet in this endeavor? I think what we actually see in Immortals and POTS suggests a somewhat limited success rate, which frankly makes sense given that the printing press doesn’t exist. In the Immortals quartet, we learn that Rider trainees who do not know how to read and write are taught as part of their training. Teaching Rider trainees how to read and write could make them more effective soldiers (the better able to read and write reports and to read or write commands vital to military operations) and the fact that some of these Rider trainees need to be taught at the palace does imply that universal education and literacy has not been achieved by Tortall. Likewise, in POTS, Wyldon if I recall correctly does indicate to Kel that it would be her responsibility to educate Lalasa if Lalasa can’t read or write, which again would suggest that universal literacy and education has not been achieved despite Jon and Thayet’s efforts to achieve it. That does make sense and is at least consistent with the reality of how downright difficult it would be to attempt to achieve universal education and literacy without the printing press or its magical equivalent.
What is probably most irksome is just that Tammy could have implemented Jon and Thayet’s educational reform in a more restrained and plausible way that could be more consistent with a medieval milieu. Have Jon and Thayet establish some schools for commoner boys and girls in select cities throughout the realm such as Corus, Port Legann, and maybe White Harbor in the north. This would be fairly consistent with how schools like Eton were founded in the medieval era and would still show Jon and Thayet as progressive rulers given that the schools would be for girls as well as boys and would be created for commoners while not feeling so anachronistic. I just think a little bit of restraint would have gone a long way with how Tammy writes Jon and Thayet’s educational and literacy reforms.
So what does everyone else think? Were Jon and Thayet’s educational and literacy reforms believable to you or would you have preferred some more restraint was shown with them? Which of their reforms made sense to you? Which ones didn’t? Did you think it was possible or plausible for Tortall to have achieved these changes so rapidly? Would the existence of the printing press or its magical equivalent made these changes and reforms more feasible for you?
I think my biggest issues are 1) Tortall seems to accomplish in decades radical education and literacy shifts that were achieved in our world through centuries and 2) Tortall has achieved those changes without any of the comparable technological advancements, social/religious developments, and economic upheavals that drove those education and literacy shifts in our world.
So, to me, it almost becomes not plausible or even possible that all the changes Tammy wants us to believe have occurred have actually done so or if they have occurred that the social, political, and economic changes in Tortall would be so seismic that our point of view characters like Kel would have to notice them in a more than passing way. Like we would need to see the essential nature of society radically shifting from the rural and the agrarian to the urban and the industrial for anything approaching universal literacy and education to be feasible and not just a really failed and anachronistic endeavor on Jon and Thayet’s part.
I do find the passage that Lisa mentioned in the other thread with Gary and Alanna in this regard pretty insightful, so I do want to quote it in full:
"First class is reading and writing,” he told her.
“But I know how to read and write!” Alanna protested.
“You do? Good. You’d be surprised at how many noblemen’s sons can’t. Don’t worry, young Trebond.” A grin lit his face. “I’m sure the masters will find something for you to do.” (Alanna The First Adventure, pg. 37.)
From Gary’s remark we learn that Gary sees it as something of a pleasant surprise that Alanna can read, suggesting that many sons of the nobility can’t read. This impression is confirmed when he goes on to suggest that she’ll be shocked by how many sons of the nobility can’t read. Now it’s possible that Gary is wrong about this, but he is speaking from his own experience, the narrative overall treats him as a clever character who is a reliable source of information for Alanna, and he is the son of the Prime Minister of Tortall so it makes sense that his knowledge of this would be reasonably well rooted in reality.
It’s also a description that is fairly consistent with my understanding of the early medieval era where it wasn’t uncommon for members of the nobility to be unable to read or write. By the late medieval era, it would be rarer to come across a noble (particularly a male noble) who couldn’t read, but for the early medieval era that could be quite believable as far as my knowledge indicates. (Disclaimer: I am interested in history but not an actual historian.)
The way Alanna’s reading and writing teachers also test her reading and writing skills also suggest that they think it is entirely possible that she would be illiterate, which tends to support Gary’s assertion. Therefore, I’d say that all the evidence points to Gary being accurate in his assessment that it is relatively rare (rare enough to be remarked upon as a positive) when a son of the nobility shows up to page training literate.
That would make Gary and Alanna the exceptions that prove the rule. Why are they exceptions? I think Gary is exceptional because he is the heir of arguably the second most powerful man in Tortall after King Roald and Alanna is the exception because her father was a scholar who placed a high priority on being literate and education. In my opinion, the following conversation tends to confirm that overarching impression:
“In your free time. Here we go. Mathematics. Can you do figures too?”
“Some,” she admitted.
“A regular scholar,” said Alex, who had caught up with them, laughing.
Alanna shook her head. “No. But my father is very strict about book learning.”
“He sounds a lot like my father in that respect,” Gary said dryly. (Alanna The First Adventure, pg. 38)
This conversation basically tells us that Alanna being able to read, write, and solve basic mathematical problems is sufficiently uncommon enough that Alex jokes about her being a scholar. It also essentially states that characters like Gary and Alanna are exceptions to typical standards of literacy and education among their peers because their fathers put a significant emphasis on book learning presumably because Alanna’s father is a respected scholar and Gary’s is Prime Minister.
By the time that Kel is a page, pages seem to arrive at the palace for training already able to read, write, and perform basic arithmetic. That is a significant change, but it is to me still a plausible one if the monarchs (Jon and Thayet) greatly value and prioritize education. Nobility would be a class of people that could most easily have the resources to educate their children at a young age (being able to afford books that have to be very costly prior to the advent of a printing press and able to pay a tutor to instruct their children). If Jon and Thayet are emphasizing the importance of literacy and education among the nobility, this class of people will also have a high incentive and desire to ensure that their children are educated and literate so as not to be ostracized or objects of scorn in higher society. On a whole, that change is plausible to me and signals perhaps a shift into a later medieval era. Perhaps that shift occurring in decades is fast, but to me it is not impossible and doesn’t snap my suspension of disbelief in any way. I don’t really have any trouble accepting it at all.
I also don’t have any issues accepting the creation of the Royal University in Tortall since I think it is a good way for Tortall to educate their own mages and scholars beyond what is offered at the City of the Gods and to prevent the potential brain drain to Carthak that could have occurred with talented Tortallan mages and scholars choosing to study in Carthak as there wasn’t really a comparable option available in Tortall until Jon and Thayet’s reign.
This was one of Jon and Thayet’s educational reforms that made sense to me and was consistent with what a medieval monarch could conceivably do. Oxford University dates from as far back as 1096 (making it the oldest university in the English-speaking world), for example, and Cambridge was founded in 1209 and received a royal charter from King Henry III in 1231. So, Tortall having its own university created under the auspices of Jon and Thayet is totally plausible to me and enough to make them achievers of significant educational reform for Tortall by itself. This is a major educational milestone for Tortall all on it’s own regardless of anything else.
My biggest source of disbelief is the schools that Jon and Thayet have apparently set up all over the realm to attempt universal education and literacy. It is just almost comically out of place to me in a medieval milieu where the printing press according to Tammy herself has yet to be invented and as far as we can see the magical equivalent of this technological device doesn’t exist either. In our own world, the printing press makes its appearance in Western Europe in the late medieval era (circa 1440) thanks to Guttenberg.
It’s plausible, therefore, that Tortall if it is in the equivalent of a late medieval stage would have the capacity to create a printing press or even through contact with the Yamanis could import such a technology (the Chinese in our real world invented the printing press centuries before its appearance in Western Europe, so that kind of cultural exchange could be possible in Tortall even if it didn’t happen in the same way in our own world). Yet nothing in Kel’s books suggests the development of a printing press in Tortall and if I recall correctly Tammy has stated in her interviews that no printing press exists in Tortall.
My personal view is that simply put a system of universal education is not only very unfeasible but borderline impossible to achieve without the invention of the printing press or its magical equivalent. Even with the invention of the printing press, it is only after the industrial revolution and well into the twentieth century that a true push for anything approaching universal literacy occurs on a large scale in our world. (Some smaller groups such as the Puritans do push for universal literacy before that in the seventeenth century and do establish colleges and schools consistent with that in their American colonies, but these groups are limited in number and only appear after the advent of the printing press in the western world makes their religious doctrines that motivate this desire for literacy possible. Without the printing press, it can very much be argued that the Protestant Reformation does not occur, and that the fringe group of Puritans never exist and create their schools in New England.)
So basically Tortall is accomplishing in decades without the printing press or its magical equivalent what it took developed nations in our own world centuries to achieve. Jon and Thayet in this regard act like twentieth century progressives rather than medieval monarchs, and the one invention, the printing press, that could begin to make any of this radical change plausible or possible is stated by Tammy not to exist in Tortall. I’ll just flatout say that it is totally unbelievable to me that 1) Jon and Thayet would attempt such a venture that just screams “anachronism” to me and 2) that they would meet any sort of significant success in this enterprise.
How much success do Jon and Thayet meet in this endeavor? I think what we actually see in Immortals and POTS suggests a somewhat limited success rate, which frankly makes sense given that the printing press doesn’t exist. In the Immortals quartet, we learn that Rider trainees who do not know how to read and write are taught as part of their training. Teaching Rider trainees how to read and write could make them more effective soldiers (the better able to read and write reports and to read or write commands vital to military operations) and the fact that some of these Rider trainees need to be taught at the palace does imply that universal education and literacy has not been achieved by Tortall. Likewise, in POTS, Wyldon if I recall correctly does indicate to Kel that it would be her responsibility to educate Lalasa if Lalasa can’t read or write, which again would suggest that universal literacy and education has not been achieved despite Jon and Thayet’s efforts to achieve it. That does make sense and is at least consistent with the reality of how downright difficult it would be to attempt to achieve universal education and literacy without the printing press or its magical equivalent.
What is probably most irksome is just that Tammy could have implemented Jon and Thayet’s educational reform in a more restrained and plausible way that could be more consistent with a medieval milieu. Have Jon and Thayet establish some schools for commoner boys and girls in select cities throughout the realm such as Corus, Port Legann, and maybe White Harbor in the north. This would be fairly consistent with how schools like Eton were founded in the medieval era and would still show Jon and Thayet as progressive rulers given that the schools would be for girls as well as boys and would be created for commoners while not feeling so anachronistic. I just think a little bit of restraint would have gone a long way with how Tammy writes Jon and Thayet’s educational and literacy reforms.
So what does everyone else think? Were Jon and Thayet’s educational and literacy reforms believable to you or would you have preferred some more restraint was shown with them? Which of their reforms made sense to you? Which ones didn’t? Did you think it was possible or plausible for Tortall to have achieved these changes so rapidly? Would the existence of the printing press or its magical equivalent made these changes and reforms more feasible for you?