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Post by devilinthedetails on Jul 31, 2020 13:15:16 GMT 10
In both the Alanna: The First Adventure and First Test, confronting hazing is a big part of the initial difficulty that Alanna and Kel face in adapting to life in the pages' wing. Yet I feel that the culture of hazing is portrayed differently in SOTL v.s. POTS.
In SOTL, Ralon comes across as something of a lone bully who mainly targets Alanna (though possibly he also gives her peers like Douglass and Sacherell a hard time but that just isn't mentioned due to Alanna not knowing them that well and space being somewhat limited in a YA book published when the first SOTL book was). He tends to receive violent condemnation from the large group of older pages that seem to enjoy the most prestige (namely Jon, Gary, Raoul, Alex, and Francis) for tormenting Alanna. So, in a way, there may be more of a culture of fighting than a culture of straight-up bullying and hazing being acceptable and celebrated although it could be argued that in a way Jon and his group excluding Alanna (who is fighting back in self-defense) are bullying Ralon. Still, it seems as if the first-years themselves only have to deal with a lone bully, Ralon, who gets more condemnation than celebration for this hazing behavior.
In POTS, however, a big group that seems to enjoy power and prestige among the pages (namely Joren, Zahir, Garvey, and Vinson) regularly bully first-years such as Merric, Seaver, and Owen in Page as well as Kel, though Kel may be a special target due to being a female. There also seems to be a widespread view that this hazing is normal and traditional. People like Prince Roald and Kel's brother Anders who appear to want to give her good advice basically suggest at various times that she not rock the boat and just endure the hazing without saying anything more than that she fell down because that's how things have always been. We also see someone like Cleon using a less violent form of hazing (ordering first-years to get him forgotten gloves and whatnot) in a way that is largely meant to be joking. So, hazing seems to have become a very integrated part of the culture with people who don't seem to like it that much still largely upholding it as if it has always been that way and others that don't seem to embrace the violent aspects of the tradition still wanting to follow it in a sort of teasing, token way a la Cleon.
So, I wonder, did things change between SOTL and POTS? If so, what accounts for the change? Is it just that we have different POV characters (Alanna and Kel) respectively with different approaches to solving conflicts? Is it because we have different boys in the pages' wing creating a different environment? Is it because the training masters have changed and might bring different attitudes to teaching the boys how to be knights? Some combination of the above? Something else I'm not considering?
What do you think?
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Post by Rosie on Jul 31, 2020 19:27:14 GMT 10
Wyldon very much seems to have changed the face of being a page - they have more definite start dates, if I recall correctly, apart from anything. I also feel as though there are more pages, which alters the environment.
The Immortals War is also a potential game changer. I feel as though that would have created an unsettled environment out of which new (even unpleasant) traditions arose or latent ones were bedded in.
Regarding Ralon, I was thinking about when he leaves his horse to Alanna, and she in turn lets him get punished. Alex wonders how Ralon expected to get away with it, and Gary (I think) speculates that he probably tried to make a younger boy do it for him. Is it a tradition that Alanna is, to some extent, protected from since she spends her time with Jon's group? Is Duke G's laissez-faire attitude as a training master what prompts fighting back from the younger boys, whereas Wyldon's more hands-on approach what brings forward a sneakier version? I wonder if it was initially well-intentioned to mimic a squire's duties, and later got abused.
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Post by Lisa on Jul 31, 2020 22:38:49 GMT 10
This is a fascinating topic, and I'm SO GLAD that you mentioned that the older pages in A:TFA in turn bully Ralon.
I feel like one is a more old-fashioned kind of bullying - a big guy picks on little guy kind of scenario that we mentally think of when given the prompt to describe a bully. And with that narrative, Tamora Pierce takes it to its logical conclusion: little guy tries to handle it & fights back (sometimes more effectively than others), big guy is eventually humiliated and licks his wounds until he grows up to be a Bad Guy. The alternative here is big guy is revealed to be a cowardly buffoon, a la Biff in Back to the Future.
Kel's situation in PotS is much more nuanced. I like that it's more a case of gentle-hazing-gone-wrong. Instead of running errands for specific reasons (to make life easier on the older pages), it's become repeat this task until I'm happy, and I might knock you around a bit if I'm not. I think it's a lot harder to address, because it definitely flies under the radar a lot more.
I think the difference in training is really the culprit here. Alanna's years were far less rigid and formal in their training structure. There was more interaction between pages and squires (meaning that senior pages had less to lord over newbies), and it seemed to be very focused on the individual. When Kel got great at tilting, she still trained with the class. Alanna, meanwhile, got private lessons with Duke Gareth. I think part of this is the Immortals War, as Rosie pointed out. A new era of combat calls for a new style of training. I also think Wyldon is a likely factor with his very hands-on approach, his involvement with every bit of combat training, and his making the pages work together as a class of students instead of individuals who happen to be training. (If I recall correctly, Alanna started her training in March, whereas by Kel's time it takes on the standard United States September - June school schedule.) And in this class, you have social divisions that are furthered by comparative success in training & the entire page sponsoring program. They didn't pick on their own, after all.
I think this loss of individuality, and less time to have one-on-one conflicts in stables and such like Ralon and Alanna, plus the newer tradition of earning your way, makes it easier to have the kind of hazing you see in PotS instead.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Aug 1, 2020 2:32:42 GMT 10
Rosie, I think you're right that Wyldon seems to have changed the face of being a page. The whole experience of being a page under Wyldon seems to be more structured with definite start and end dates for each year whereas with Duke Gareth it seemed that Alanna could start her page training whenever as long as she showed up with a note from her father putting her under Duke Gareth's instruction and whatnot. Everyone starting and ending at the same time could alter the feel of page training. It does feel as if there are more pages at the palace when Kel is going through page training. I don't know if that's just because Tammy had more space to include different characters in two books as opposed to one or if that is an actual difference in number but it could be an actual increase in number if Tortall has gone through a sort of baby boom/population increase or if more second and even third sons (like Kel's brothers Inness and Conal) are enrolling in page training rather than becoming Mithran monks. It could be that due to conflicts like the Immortals War there is a greater priority on increasing the number of knights in the realm compared to when there hadn't been a large-scale conflict for a majority of King Roald's reign in Alanna's time. And the increase in the number of pages could mean more potential for conflict. I kind of like that theory since it shows the impact that the Immortals War could have on the realm. I also like your suggestion that the Immortals War could have sparked new, violent traditions or created resurgences of old ones that hadn't been as popular for awhile. It could be that the culture as a whole decided on some level that it needed to toughen up the pages since even the pages weren't really spared from fighting the Immortals and hazing was one not so nice form and outgrowth of that mentality. That could make a lot of sense as well. That is an interesting conversation that you mention. Perhaps Gary's comment is a hint that younger pages might be expected and asked to do chores like that for the older pages and Alanna had been spared that by everyone except Ralon because she was a friend of the prince's (whereas Ralon might have wanted to target her in particular because she was a favorite of prince's and he seems kind of jealous about that). Duke Gareth came across to me as taking almost a principal or vice principal approach where pages would primarily be sent to him if they had a discipline problem or some other significant issues (like a progress report written to their father or Alanna getting to go on trips to Olau and the Southern Desert) so it was like you could go days and weeks or even months not seeing Duke Gareth if you followed the rules. I think he even told Alanna when she first came to the palace that she wouldn't see too much of him as long as she behaved. Whereas with Wyldon it was more like a head teacher's approach where he was the guy in charge of all the teachers but you'd still see him every day at training in the practice courts even if you didn't break the rules. So, maybe the pages in Kel's time felt they had to be more sneaky with Wyldon around more. I also think that Duke Gareth might have even encouraged Alanna to fight Ralon, saying that he wished she would thrash Ralon and she said that she'd do it one day because she was getting tired of falling down. So Duke Gareth seemed to be encouraging a sort of "fight back" way of solving the hazing/bullying problem. And I think Alanna even gets the impression that he's proud of her but can't say so when she does beat Ralon. So, almost like fighting would be a potential solution to bullying/hazing in Duke Gareth's opinion, which is advice that clearly resonates with Alanna. Wyldon to me almost seemed more opposed to any and all fighting in the pages' wing and like he wanted to stamp it out but wasn't going to address the bullying/hazing that caused the fighting instead blaming Kel at one point for causing all the fights since there were in his words never so many fights until she came along. So, to him, it was like the problem was the fighting, not the hazing/bullying, and the hazing/bullying could continue as long as the fighting stopped, and he didn't really seem to understand the fighting problem could largely be resolved if the bullying/hazing issue was addressed. It was like he didn't see the forest for the trees in a way. I like your idea that maybe the expectation that younger pages would run errands and do chores for the older pages was a sort of preparation for the roles and chores they'd be expected to fill as squires to knights one day. It could be seen as them sort of learning the skills and behavior that a squire would need to know. That makes quite a lot of sense. Also, now that I think about it, I believe I recall both Duke Gareth and Wyldon mentioning that pages had to run errands and messages for lords and ladies who asked them to do so, which might mean that perhaps some of the hazing rituals of having younger pages fetch things and whatnot for the older pages could be an outgrowth of that as well. That would fit well with the overall culture that we see. Lisa, thanks! I'm glad that you find the topic fascinating because I've definitely found the perspectives and ideas shared so far to be very interesting and to make a lot of sense. I felt that I did have to mention that the older pages in Jon's group could be said to in turn bully Ralon because I didn't necessarily pick up on that when I first read the book in sixth grade, but as I got older, I began to feel that was indeed the case because there are so many of them sort of ganging up on Ralon and he does have less power and prestige than them. I think you're right that Ralon's style of bullying does seem more old-fashioned in the sense that it's the big guy picking on the little one. Ralon's like the kid who shoves the smaller dude into a locker and steals his lunch money. And the big guy is beaten when the little one fights back and runs away to lick his wounds until he can come back with a vengeance in Lioness Rampant. I think you're also right that the hazing in Kel's books primarily seems to go wrong when it's not a case of being asked to run a specific errand (like getting Cleon his gloves for practice) but when it's like the requests are excuses to torment someone at length (like pick up this book I keep dropping and I might give you a punch if you aren't fast enough or whatever). And that thing can fly under the radar more because it can be harder to make a clear cut distinction between it's okay that Cleon asks a first-year to fetch his gloves for him but it's not okay for Joren to drop books repeatedly as basically an excuse to beat up first-years. It's not very black and white. There's a lot of gray area. The Cleon's of the pages' wing can say, "I just send first-years to get my gloves, and it's a laugh," which gives the Joren's of the pages' wing some ground to claim, "I just make the first-years pick up dropped books repeatedly and beat on them if they aren't fast enough." So the Cleon's of the world can see it as not a big deal and a bit of a laugh, while the Joren's of the world can see it as a chance to beat up on younger pages with less power. Which makes that type of hazing hard for anyone to really confront. The Ralon kind of hazing in many ways can be easier to confront. I agree that the structure of knighthood training in Alanna's day seemed less rigid and formalized with the pages and squires interacting more and the squires seeming to spend significant time at the palace rather than almost exclusively with their personal knightmaster wherever their knightmaster happened to be posted in the realm. Perhaps having the squires around creates a different vibe in the pages' wing and one with a stricter sense of hierarchy between the pages. The rank of whether you are a first, second, third, or fourth year page seems to matter a lot more in Kel's time than Alanna's time as a result. All this makes a lot of sense and really shows how multi-faceted this issue is and why it is a hard one to address and why it seems to change form from the Alanna books to the Kel ones. Now I'm really interested in knowing what the pages' wing is like under Padraig haMinch...
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Post by Rosie on Aug 1, 2020 3:06:26 GMT 10
Yes, I'd be interested to see how things developed under haMinch too!
Just picking up on your point re: more kids being encouraged to try for knighthood. I suspect you're right, but it's interesting that there is an increase in viable options (Riders, maybe the King's Own has been enlarged?, Queen's Ladies but only loosely because there don't seem to have been many other crossdressing pages) and there still seems to be more pages. It's not like we weren't getting younger sons in Alanna's time (whilst Gary, Alex, and Raoul are all heirs, and Geoffrey appears to be, and 'Alan' is supposed to be, Ralon is third-born, Douglass is definitely not the heir because they wouldn't ship him off to Dunlath, and Sacherell is from a lesser branch of the Wellam family). Was there a population boom? Or was it the reverse, that would-be parents died in King Jasson's time?
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Hopeless
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Post by Hopeless on Aug 1, 2020 3:20:35 GMT 10
Wyldon very much seems to have changed the face of being a page - they have more definite start dates, if I recall correctly, apart from anything. I also feel as though there are more pages, which alters the environment. The Immortals War is also a potential game changer. I feel as though that would have created an unsettled environment out of which new (even unpleasant) traditions arose or latent ones were bedded in. Regarding Ralon, I was thinking about when he leaves his horse to Alanna, and she in turn lets him get punished. Alex wonders how Ralon expected to get away with it, and Gary (I think) speculates that he probably tried to make a younger boy do it for him. Is it a tradition that Alanna is, to some extent, protected from since she spends her time with Jon's group? Is Duke G's laissez-faire attitude as a training master what prompts fighting back from the younger boys, whereas Wyldon's more hands-on approach what brings forward a sneakier version? I wonder if it was initially well-intentioned to mimic a squire's duties, and later got abused. That makes sense because her friends always try and fight her fights for her like at the pool when Raoul basically drowns ralon
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Hopeless
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I used to be Kel of King’s Reach. Then I decided hopeless was more accurate.
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Post by Hopeless on Aug 1, 2020 3:30:47 GMT 10
Yes, I'd be interested to see how things developed under haMinch too! Just picking up on your point re: more kids being encouraged to try for knighthood. I suspect you're right, but it's interesting that there is an increase in viable options (Riders, maybe the King's Own has been enlarged?, Queen's Ladies but only loosely because there don't seem to have been many other crossdressing pages) and there still seems to be more pages. It's not like we weren't getting younger sons in Alanna's time (whilst Gary, Alex, and Raoul are all heirs, and Geoffrey appears to be, and 'Alan' is supposed to be, Ralon is third-born, Douglass is definitely not the heir because they wouldn't ship him off to Dunlath, and Sacherell is from a lesser branch of the Wellam family). Was there a population boom? Or was it the reverse, that would-be parents died in King Jasson's time? I always thought of it as in alannas time, a lot of them just kinda lazed around at court, and then when the immortals came everyone had to learn how to fight, and be good at it so it made sense for more of them to become knights, otherwise they’d die because there were so many immortals around. But it might be both, cos King Jasson was called ‘the conquerer’ for a reason, right? All he seemed to do was fight wars and expand the kingdom so it makes sense that a lot of would-be fathers died for him (and would-be mothers? The other lady knights were before king Jassons time, I think.)
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Post by devilinthedetails on Aug 1, 2020 3:47:10 GMT 10
Yes, I'd be interested to see how things developed under haMinch too! Just picking up on your point re: more kids being encouraged to try for knighthood. I suspect you're right, but it's interesting that there is an increase in viable options (Riders, maybe the King's Own has been enlarged?, Queen's Ladies but only loosely because there don't seem to have been many other crossdressing pages) and there still seems to be more pages. It's not like we weren't getting younger sons in Alanna's time (whilst Gary, Alex, and Raoul are all heirs, and Geoffrey appears to be, and 'Alan' is supposed to be, Ralon is third-born, Douglass is definitely not the heir because they wouldn't ship him off to Dunlath, and Sacherell is from a lesser branch of the Wellam family). Was there a population boom? Or was it the reverse, that would-be parents died in King Jasson's time? You're right that there do seem to be more viable options for those who want a sort of military/fighting career. In addition to the army and knighthood, there's also the Riders, a King's Own that seems to be more of a legitimate fighting force than it was under King Roald's rule, the Queen's Riders has been established, and there's also the Queen's Ladies for girls who might've been inspired to fight by Alanna (possibly a good compromise for families that don't want their daughter to train as a knight but the daughter still wants to fight). Yet there still seems to be this increase in total page numbers. That's also a good observation that there were younger sons training during Alanna's time as well so that can't be the only way of accounting for the difference. It might be possible that there was a population boom or that King Jasson's wars decreased the population of Tortall so severely that demographically Tortall didn't really recover until Jon's reign. In a way, I kind of like the latter theory, since it pins the blame on King Jasson, and I'm not a huge King Jasson fan
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Post by Rosie on Aug 3, 2020 19:27:56 GMT 10
Wyldon very much seems to have changed the face of being a page - they have more definite start dates, if I recall correctly, apart from anything. I also feel as though there are more pages, which alters the environment. The Immortals War is also a potential game changer. I feel as though that would have created an unsettled environment out of which new (even unpleasant) traditions arose or latent ones were bedded in. Regarding Ralon, I was thinking about when he leaves his horse to Alanna, and she in turn lets him get punished. Alex wonders how Ralon expected to get away with it, and Gary (I think) speculates that he probably tried to make a younger boy do it for him. Is it a tradition that Alanna is, to some extent, protected from since she spends her time with Jon's group? Is Duke G's laissez-faire attitude as a training master what prompts fighting back from the younger boys, whereas Wyldon's more hands-on approach what brings forward a sneakier version? I wonder if it was initially well-intentioned to mimic a squire's duties, and later got abused. That makes sense because her friends always try and fight her fights for her like at the pool when Raoul basically drowns ralon Yes, exactly! Raoul tries to drown Ralon, beats him up at Jon's command, and then is dismissive and says he wouldn't have passed the Ordeal to Kel? Perhaps he wouldn't have, but I'd still have liked some remorse from Raoul here. Yes, I'd be interested to see how things developed under haMinch too! Just picking up on your point re: more kids being encouraged to try for knighthood. I suspect you're right, but it's interesting that there is an increase in viable options (Riders, maybe the King's Own has been enlarged?, Queen's Ladies but only loosely because there don't seem to have been many other crossdressing pages) and there still seems to be more pages. It's not like we weren't getting younger sons in Alanna's time (whilst Gary, Alex, and Raoul are all heirs, and Geoffrey appears to be, and 'Alan' is supposed to be, Ralon is third-born, Douglass is definitely not the heir because they wouldn't ship him off to Dunlath, and Sacherell is from a lesser branch of the Wellam family). Was there a population boom? Or was it the reverse, that would-be parents died in King Jasson's time? You're right that there do seem to be more viable options for those who want a sort of military/fighting career. In addition to the army and knighthood, there's also the Riders, a King's Own that seems to be more of a legitimate fighting force than it was under King Roald's rule, the Queen's Riders has been established, and there's also the Queen's Ladies for girls who might've been inspired to fight by Alanna (possibly a good compromise for families that don't want their daughter to train as a knight but the daughter still wants to fight). Yet there still seems to be this increase in total page numbers. That's also a good observation that there were younger sons training during Alanna's time as well so that can't be the only way of accounting for the difference. It might be possible that there was a population boom or that King Jasson's wars decreased the population of Tortall so severely that demographically Tortall didn't really recover until Jon's reign. In a way, I kind of like the latter theory, since it pins the blame on King Jasson, and I'm not a huge King Jasson fan I wonder if there's any effect on the warriors for the Goddess? I think I'm right in saying they and the Shang are the only examples of female fighters in SOTL. I'm pretty sure the number of academics would also increase, given that Tortall opened its Royal University so everyone's not forced to study at the City of the Gods or in Carthak... population boom/replenished population is the only explanation I can see, unless everyone was sitting at home idle! Even the academics we know of in SOTL are either priests or trained knights.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Aug 4, 2020 1:09:42 GMT 10
Rosie , I actually hadn't thought to much about Raoul's conversation with Kel in Squire about Ralon but it is really very relevant to this topic. I do agree that some more remorse on Raoul's part could've been in order there. He did indeed almost drown Ralon, which is really quite out of proportion to what Ralon was doing to Alanna at the time (what Ralon was doing to Alanna was a more forceful version of Raoul's own teasing about Alanna never going for a swim, and while it is different to be teased by a friend rather than tormented by a bully, I don't think that justifies Raoul almost drowning Ralon). It would've been nice to see him acknowledge that as a grown-up with Kel. And that could've even been educational to Kel as well as evidencing growth on his part since it could have really reinforced for Kel that people like Raoul can sort of change for the better and leave behind a lot of the hazing culture of the pages' wing. It also might've shown that being a bully can be a complicated thing where maybe the bully even feels justified in his actions at the time, since I think Alanna's gang was totally convinced of the righteousness of their actions when they beat up on Ralon, which to me they weren't especially since Ralon is one boy versus a whole gang of them. I'd feel different if Ralon was like Joren and had a gang around him. Then it's a gang versus a gang rather than a gang that for all intents and purposes is picking on a lone person albeit a lone person who is himself a bully. You're right that it was problematic that Raoul beat Ralon up at Jon's command. Re-reading the SOTL books as an adult, I get a bit of an impression of Raoul as something of an enforcer for Jon because in Hand of the Goddess he looks as if he wants to fight the Tusaine knight who gets insulting at the court party and basically needs to be plied with alcohol to get him to calm down. Overall, he just seems a bit more hot-headed in the SOTL books than in the POTS book. By POTS, he seems to have settled down into a very easygoing fellow who can be a great mentor for Kel, but his character in SOTL is a bit harder for me to get a read on in part because we don't really see as much of him. I think he's described as being this easygoing jokester type, but at the same time, many of his actions are quite hot-headed, more hot-headed than Kel's would be at the same age for example I'd say. So I think he must've changed in key ways from SOTL to POTS and maybe his dealing with alcoholism was a significant part of that. Hard to say. That's a good question about whether the increase in fighting options for females had any effect on the warriors for the Goddess. I think you're right that in SOTL the only real fighting careers available to women in Tortall were becoming Shang warriors (and numbers of Shang warriors in general seemed to be very low and exclusive) or becoming a warrior for the Goddess at the Temple. The warriors for the Goddess seem to still be going strong in POTS, and in Beka Cooper's books, it seems like having warriors for the Goddess and having female Dogs (as well as female knights) is possible to sustain at the same time although there might be some overlap in membership. If I recall correctly, doesn't Goodwin also volunteer as a warrior of the Goddess in her off hours? So maybe some of the Queen's Riders and/or Queen's Ladies can also volunteer to be warriors of the Goddess. Or maybe I have that totally wrong. Been a little while since I last read the Beka Cooper books. I definitely think the number of academics and formally educated mages would increase significantly in Tortall with the presence of the Royal University. Before that, the choices for becoming an academic or a formally educated mage seemed to mostly be training with the monks at the City of the Gods or traveling across the ocean to Carthak to train at the university there. The latter doesn't seem to have been particularly common since it seemed to be treated as noteworthy that Duke Roger had chosen to study there. And probably the university in Carthak represented a fairly significant brain and talent drain from countries like Tortall and Tusaine into Carthak since Carthak seemed to be willing to offer employment opportunities to those mages from foreign countries educated there. So, I think Carthak probably net benefited from having a university there that taught people from other countries while I imagine it was a net loss for places like Tortall and Tusaine who probably lost a chunk of their best and brightest to Carthak because Carthak had the university and employment opportunities for the ambitious and talented. In that light, I did understand Jon and Thayet starting the Royal University to keep those best and brightest in Tortall rather than risk losing them to Carthak. It was really the push for universal education and establishing schools for everyone all across the realm that didn't seem realistic or feasible to me in a society that hadn't seen the advent of a printing press or similar invention. I do think that a population boom is a good explanation for a lot of this stuff, though I imagine a great majority and bulk of the population still has to be engaged primarily in farming their lord's land since a medieval and feudal society can really only sustain and feed itself if it is essentially an agrarian one where most people toil on the land with almost no power to change their fate. If any of that really changes, the feudal and medieval model just pretty much has to collapse. The feudal and medieval model just doesn't work with an overall educated population that desires any sort of social mobility or significant economic opportunity. Maybe Tortall is getting close to that breaking point with all the opportunities being given to people, because when people do have all those opportunities, they aren't going to want to stay trapped in lives of drudgery tilling their lord's land. They are going to want better lives for themselves and their children. They might even reach boiling point and demand it violently though revolution.
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Post by Rosie on Aug 4, 2020 1:36:14 GMT 10
And that could've even been educational to Kel as well as evidencing growth on his part since it could have really reinforced for Kel that people like Raoul can sort of change for the better and leave behind a lot of the hazing culture of the pages' wing. It also might've shown that being a bully can be a complicated thing where maybe the bully even feels justified in his actions at the time, since I think Alanna's gang was totally convinced of the righteousness of their actions when they beat up on Ralon, which to me they weren't especially since Ralon is one boy versus a whole gang of them. I'd feel different if Ralon was like Joren and had a gang around him. Then it's a gang versus a gang rather than a gang that for all intents and purposes is picking on a lone person albeit a lone person who is himself a bully. You're right that it was problematic that Raoul beat Ralon up at Jon's command. Re-reading the SOTL books as an adult, I get a bit of an impression of Raoul as something of an enforcer for Jon because in Hand of the Goddess he looks as if he wants to fight the Tusaine knight who gets insulting at the court party and basically needs to be plied with alcohol to get him to calm down. Overall, he just seems a bit more hot-headed in the SOTL books than in the POTS book. By POTS, he seems to have settled down into a very easygoing fellow who can be a great mentor for Kel, but his character in SOTL is a bit harder for me to get a read on in part because we don't really see as much of him. I think he's described as being this easygoing jokester type, but at the same time, many of his actions are quite hot-headed, more hot-headed than Kel's would be at the same age for example I'd say. So I think he must've changed in key ways from SOTL to POTS and maybe his dealing with alcoholism was a significant part of that. Hard to say. Snipped, but I think you're right about it being problematic that it's one vs many in Ralon's case, and whilst he is definitely portrayed as an out-and-out villain, bad behaviour doesn't excuse bad behaviour. I don't really think of Raoul as hotheaded but he is, just as you say. I think he seems calmer during LR (after he's spent some time away from the court, adopted by the Bazhir), though we don't see much of him then. I suspect Queen's Ladies couldn't be warriors because of the class divide, but could be wrong! Riders on the other hand does seem more likely. Of course, perhaps temple warriors are a good avenue for lowborn folk. I'm interested in how devout Tortall is, but I suppose that's another thread entirely! A distinct possibility, Jon must have had to quell unrest post-famine, but it could still be there, latent!
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Post by Hopeless on Aug 4, 2020 2:37:22 GMT 10
And that could've even been educational to Kel as well as evidencing growth on his part since it could have really reinforced for Kel that people like Raoul can sort of change for the better and leave behind a lot of the hazing culture of the pages' wing. It also might've shown that being a bully can be a complicated thing where maybe the bully even feels justified in his actions at the time, since I think Alanna's gang was totally convinced of the righteousness of their actions when they beat up on Ralon, which to me they weren't especially since Ralon is one boy versus a whole gang of them. I'd feel different if Ralon was like Joren and had a gang around him. Then it's a gang versus a gang rather than a gang that for all intents and purposes is picking on a lone person albeit a lone person who is himself a bully. You're right that it was problematic that Raoul beat Ralon up at Jon's command. Re-reading the SOTL books as an adult, I get a bit of an impression of Raoul as something of an enforcer for Jon because in Hand of the Goddess he looks as if he wants to fight the Tusaine knight who gets insulting at the court party and basically needs to be plied with alcohol to get him to calm down. Overall, he just seems a bit more hot-headed in the SOTL books than in the POTS book. By POTS, he seems to have settled down into a very easygoing fellow who can be a great mentor for Kel, but his character in SOTL is a bit harder for me to get a read on in part because we don't really see as much of him. I think he's described as being this easygoing jokester type, but at the same time, many of his actions are quite hot-headed, more hot-headed than Kel's would be at the same age for example I'd say. So I think he must've changed in key ways from SOTL to POTS and maybe his dealing with alcoholism was a significant part of that. Hard to say. Snipped, but I think you're right about it being problematic that it's one vs many in Ralon's case, and whilst he is definitely portrayed as an out-and-out villain, bad behaviour doesn't excuse bad behaviour. I don't really think of Raoul as hotheaded but he is, just as you say. I think he seems calmer during LR (after he's spent some time away from the court, adopted by the Bazhir), though we don't see much of him then. I suspect Queen's Ladies couldn't be warriors because of the class divide, but could be wrong! Riders on the other hand does seem more likely. Of course, perhaps temple warriors are a good avenue for lowborn folk. I'm interested in how devout Tortall is, but I suppose that's another thread entirely! A distinct possibility, Jon must have had to quell unrest post-famine, but it could still be there, latent! I never thought of that.... but maybe if there IS a population boom then lots of them might be more content as they are- and the older commoners probably wouldn’t want everything to completely change their jobs as long as they were getting treated well and didn’t go hungry. That would make class differences lessen a bit though, which would be really good but it’s not something u can force, if that makes sense. You can’t just be like ‘ok, like these people now, don’t look down on them, even though they’re uneducated smelly peasants’, the nobles would revolt.
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Post by Rosie on Aug 4, 2020 7:35:25 GMT 10
Snipped, but I think you're right about it being problematic that it's one vs many in Ralon's case, and whilst he is definitely portrayed as an out-and-out villain, bad behaviour doesn't excuse bad behaviour. I don't really think of Raoul as hotheaded but he is, just as you say. I think he seems calmer during LR (after he's spent some time away from the court, adopted by the Bazhir), though we don't see much of him then. I suspect Queen's Ladies couldn't be warriors because of the class divide, but could be wrong! Riders on the other hand does seem more likely. Of course, perhaps temple warriors are a good avenue for lowborn folk. I'm interested in how devout Tortall is, but I suppose that's another thread entirely! A distinct possibility, Jon must have had to quell unrest post-famine, but it could still be there, latent! I never thought of that.... but maybe if there IS a population boom then lots of them might be more content as they are- and the older commoners probably wouldn’t want everything to completely change their jobs as long as they were getting treated well and didn’t go hungry. That would make class differences lessen a bit though, which would be really good but it’s not something u can force, if that makes sense. You can’t just be like ‘ok, like these people now, don’t look down on them, even though they’re uneducated smelly peasants’, the nobles would revolt. yes, true, but does make me wonder about the commoners/farmers in the fiefs Jonathan is intent on beggaring twenty years after their attempted rebellions, like Eldorne and Tirragen. The money to pay for hosting must come from somewhere, would there be a knock on effect in the fief?
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Hopeless
Standard Bearer
Faleron Fan
I used to be Kel of King’s Reach. Then I decided hopeless was more accurate.
Posts: 234
Gender: Female
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Post by Hopeless on Aug 5, 2020 2:31:46 GMT 10
This has got so off topic, I’ve just realised... but I guess people would be cleverer/ more tactical and more aware of stuff if they were all educated? If the fiefs didn’t have quite enough money then surely they’d just make the feast a little cheaper so they could feed evryone... or, maybe not, cos they are quite proud and it would be like admitting they don’t have any money left and that others are better, and if Lerant is anything to go by, the fiefs wouldn’t do that.
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Post by Lisa on Aug 9, 2020 3:05:40 GMT 10
I think the biggest issue in the change between series is that Pierce altered so much with some throwaway lines. Like, Neal tells Kel that all citizens are educated in schools now while twenty years earlier Gary was telling "Alan" that it was common for nobles to be illiterate. That's... an aggressive change that creates upheaval for feudalism. (which, for the record, is why fanfics that explore conservative values in Tortall other than women being warriors are valid and important!)
I feel like Tortall, in general, went from a haphazard feudal nation with medieval qualities to a more enlightened and organized 16th-17th century monarchy. Jon's system mirrors Louis XIV in some ways (the social penalties on Eldorne, Tirragen, and Sinthya during the Progress was a classic King Louis maneuver). The government feels more like a centralized force based on legislation rather than divine right and religion, though those two clearly play a factor. And I think the training of pages, and who gets sent to train, is indicative of that. For the record, I'm going to give the credit to Gary, since he's all about census-taking and organization.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Aug 14, 2020 3:12:25 GMT 10
I do find the discussion of literacy and education in Tortall so fascinating that I did want to explore the issue in greater depth in its own thread, so I did create a separate thread to hopefully analyze that issue with the attention that it deserves.
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Hopeless
Standard Bearer
Faleron Fan
I used to be Kel of King’s Reach. Then I decided hopeless was more accurate.
Posts: 234
Gender: Female
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Post by Hopeless on Aug 30, 2020 21:04:33 GMT 10
Cool I’ll go on that
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