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Post by devilinthedetails on Jan 9, 2021 6:18:49 GMT 10
The twin to my Tortallan Controversial or Unpopular Opinions thread, this is the spot to share all your controversial or unpopular opinions about the Emelan universe.
Some of my unpopular or controversial opinions are:
-I wish that the four Circle members (Sandry, Tris, Daja, and Briar) had been a little older when the Circle Opens books started because I thought Sandry and Briar in particular were really young to take on students of their own.
-I wish we had gotten to see more of Pasco. It's a little sad to me that so much more has been written on Evvy (especially since she is kind of whiny in Melting Stones) but Pasco only gets one book in the spotlight.
-On a related note, it would be cool to see Lark get a bit more attention as well, since Rosethorn gets to be in both Melting Stones and Battle Magic.
-Places like Namorn, Chammur, and Tharios are more interesting settings than Emelan itself.
-Yanjing is likewise a more fascinating setting to me than Gyongxe.
-Jia Jiu makes a better villain than the cartoonish Weishu.
So, what are your controversial or unpopular Emelan opinions? I'd love to hear them.
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mageprincess
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Post by mageprincess on Jan 9, 2021 20:34:55 GMT 10
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO KETH.
It bugs me so much that he just disappeared. I assume he stayed in Tharios but I just don't know and it BUGS me!!!
I also really want to know if the Duke and Yazmin worked out. I'd love to see Duchess Yazmin!
I agree that Emelan is probably not the most exciting setting out of all the places available, but I do think its the most progressive and best place for the four to have ended up.
My (potentially) unpopular opinion:
As much as I am all for Tammy's "no relationship necessary" outlook, and generally support it 100%, I really want to see two things happen; 1. I want to see Tris meet someone who will like/love her for herself, maybe even because she's powerful, overweight and redheaded. If we ever get our Tris at Lightsbridge book I want to see that or her.
2. I want to see Briar rendered absolutely speechless and hopeless by a girl. Given his uh, tastes, I'd love to see him go from player to actually enamoured. The girls would give him so much grief about it and I am here for it!
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Post by devilinthedetails on Jan 10, 2021 5:27:43 GMT 10
I agree it would be nice to find out more about what happened to Keth. Duchess Yazmin would be cool to see. My head canon is that the Duke and Yazmin stay together and go the distance but it'd be nice to see that. It could be nice to see Tris in a relationship with someone who likes/loves her for herself, and in general, it'd be awesome to get that Tris at Lightsbridge book. Briar rendered speeches and hopeless would be hilarious, and Daja, Sandry, and Tris should totally go to town making fun of him for it like you suggest
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Post by MythicMistress on Jun 3, 2021 21:29:04 GMT 10
*Takes deep breath*
I'm not entirely on board with the Word of Pierce that Sandry is ace and Briar is pan. For Sandry, it's mostly due to the timing of the reveal- When a character is revealed as being LGBTQIA after getting burned by a member of the opposite sex, it causes a niggling sense of doubt in me. The bridal kidnapping she went through during The Will of the Empress was enough to cause that sense of doubt. Now, if that reveal had come before the release of The Will of the Empress, maybe I wouldn't have those doubts. (I probably still would have been as initially angry about it as I was over Daja, Lark, and Rosethorn, though.) As for Briar... I was thinking, "Where did that come from?" when that detail was revealed. Granted, part of this is my bitterness that apparently there is no way to platonically share a bed with someone. I guess it's plausible that he's slept with a few guys in his time, but it still felt a bit jarring.
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Post by mistrali on Jun 7, 2021 0:15:30 GMT 10
1. In contrast to mageprincess, I would *not* like to see Tris in any form of romantic or sexual relationship whatsoever. WOTE be damned, I headcanon her as firmly aroace. (Actually, I could see her as aspec. But since I’m not confident that Tammy will be able to get her head around the SAM & the ace/aro spectrums, let alone write about the various nuances of aromanticism and asexuality in a way that doesn’t feel anachronistic, for the purposes of the argument I’ll stick with aroace.) 2. I would rather we never get Tris at Lightsbridge — or any other Emelan book - than have another Battle Magic. In fact, I’d be happy for the Emelan books to stop altogether, because it’s a canon that (to me) shines with less information. The more canon you fill in, the less magical it becomes. 3. The more I read, the more I’m coming around to Sandry’s being ace. I can’t see her being aro (she has quite the crush on Shan), but can absolutely see ace. I would have liked some actual discussion about it in the books, though, along the lines of Tamari’s fic, rather than Tammy just dropping it on us out of the blue and then readers having to retcon/adjust it to fit. MythicMistress, your take on ace Sandry is interesting and I can absolutely see where you’re coming from. Personally, I love that we can have an ace character and particularly an ace noble, but there are so many different angles to discuss the Word of Pierce revelations from and that’s an important point I hadn’t thought of before. I’m curious why you were initially angry about Daja? Lark and Rosethorn I can understand, but Daja seems to me to be a fairly plausible example of the kind of person who convinces themselves they’re straight when they’re actually [insert sexuality]. Much more importantly, her romance with Rizu always felt like an authentic romance to me - a heartbreaking summer fling, sure, but one I enjoyed reading about. Re: Briar, I agree about platonic bedsharing. Forgive me if I’m completely missing something, but Briar would still be pansexual if he was attracted to guys but never (or rarely) slept with them. Was he ever actually confirmed to have slept with guys? Again, though, you’re right that it comes out of nowhere - not a peep in BM, WOTE or SM.
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Post by MythicMistress on Jun 7, 2021 6:53:19 GMT 10
Mistrali, the initial anger about Daja was selfish on my part- I was still at the phase where I was getting angry about seeing any LGBT+ characters at all, due to my parents' intolerant attitudes toward LGBT+ people. It just didn't feel safe for me to be consuming media with LGBT+ characters (still doesn't). Emelan had felt safe up to that point, and when I felt that I had lost that feeling of safety, I got angry. I've since gotten to the point where I can live and let live, but back then when WOTE was first released? Not so much. Does this answer your question?
Re: Briar, I don't think it was confirmed if he's ever slept with a guy, but he could still be attracted to them, yes. I apologize for any assumptions on my part.
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mageprincess
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Post by mageprincess on Jun 7, 2021 20:09:09 GMT 10
mistrali my main reasoning for wanting Tris to find someone who loves and accepts her romantically is because she is the one I identified with the most, and still do. Having been very overweight my entire childhood and teenage years into my adult life (less so now with surgical intervention but still not where I would like to be) I always saw myself in grumpy, fat bookworm Tris, and my heart absolutely broke when she described her experiences at the hands of the boys she liked. Honestly; I wouldn’t mind if she ended up staying single in the end, much like Kel, who had relationships but ultimately stayed single, I just want her to know that there are people out there that don’t suck. But I totally agree about Battle Magic. I can’t go through that again.
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Post by Seek on Jun 10, 2021 6:32:07 GMT 10
Mistrali, the initial anger about Daja was selfish on my part- I was still at the phase where I was getting angry about seeing any LGBT+ characters at all, due to my parents' intolerant attitudes toward LGBT+ people. It just didn't feel safe for me to be consuming media with LGBT+ characters (still doesn't). Emelan had felt safe up to that point, and when I felt that I had lost that feeling of safety, I got angry. I've since gotten to the point where I can live and let live, but back then when WOTE was first released? Not so much. Does this answer your question? I understand this. The Daja revelation hit me hard, and it seemed to come out of nowhere. It didn't help Daja was probably the member of the four I identified most with, despite probably being a better match for Tris. Anyway. We all have our baggage, but that would definitely be an unpopular take from me.
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Post by Kypriotha on Jun 27, 2021 10:44:12 GMT 10
I agree with mageprincess on Tris - as much as I am generally a fan of no romance, I would like to see Tris have positive experiences with romantic and sexual relationships. I don't want to see her fall into the stereotypes of overweight or powerful women not being considered attractive or desirable. I also agree that I would rather no Tris at Lightsbridge book than another Battle Magic! I feel like the chances of the book ever happening are slim anyway, but if it does, I hold onto a modicum of hope that it would be better because it's a sequel, not filling in a known gap. As much as I understand the problems with retconning a character's sexuality, or making it q-canon but never showing it on the page, I fully accept Sandry being ace. Not aro though, as mistrali above already said - I read her as alloromantic. I may have used her as a vehicle for my own frustrations in my OSW Ace!Sandry fic series, but the more I wrote about the ace experience from her perspective, the more I was convinced of her ace-ness. The class considerations give it another interesting layer for me. However, I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of it being Word of Pierced after WOTE and her experiences in that book, and that's a really interesting point that has been raised. I would hate for anyone reading the books to think that her ace-ness is a result of her trauma, because that's a damaging idea that continues to harm ace and aspec people. So maybe my problematic take is that I'm willing to overlook all the issues with Sandry being ace only by virtue of Word of Pierce simply because I'm so desperate for any type of aspec representation.
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Post by mistrali on Jul 4, 2021 0:02:51 GMT 10
mageprincess Yup, that makes total sense and I bet it resonates strongly with a lot of the fanbase - especially because a lot of us saw/see ourselves in Tris. To me, her siblings are her soulmates, but then I am heavily into the platonic soulmates/BFFL/"always us" aspect of the Circle. What I like is that even if any of them finds a long-term partner, the series will still give equal priority to the strong bond between the four of them. And yes, what the boys did to her is absolutely bullying, and must have been an unpleasant flashback to pre-Winding Circle. I d like her to find non-sucky people, too, and would definitely like to see her mingle in more 'normal'/natural friend groups outside of her siblings and Niko. Travelling with Niko can't have been great for her social life. Since neither of them are exactly social butterflies, I doubt she did much but study, do weather stuff, attend conferences (where 90% of the mages were older than her), maybe tutor, sightsee and work on her magic. I love the Circle's friendship, but it was also strengthened by their magical bond, living together and... well... Sandry, who is a force of nature in her own right I'd also really like Tris to have more people she can trust and get along with outside of her immediate family. Not unpopular, but OMG, hard yes about Keth!! I want someone to write an epic Keth-and-Dema casefic or something, so that I can 'know' what happened to him, lol. Given the way his family back in Namorn treated him, I can see him letting his fiancee down gently post-Shatterglass, staying in Tharios and starting a long fruitful career working with the Elya Street arurimat. After all, since it was an arranged marriage (IIRC), he doesn't owe his family anything, any more than Tris owes the Chandlers anything. I can also see him returning to Namorn and setting up his own glassmaking shop, but going pretty firmly no-contact or setting very firm boundaries that he doesn't owe them free trade deals, money or anything else. MythicMistress : Ouch, that sounds like quite the journey. It can be hard to overcome prejudices we've been raised with. Glad you were able to open up to connecting to more LGBTQ+ characters in media (or at least, if I'm understanding correctly, accept that LGBTQ+ characters have their place in the media). The reason I asked is that a lot of people felt Lark and Rosethorn came out of nowhere. And from that, another semi-controversial opinion incoming: To be honest, in 2021, I now have somewhat mixed feelings about Lark and Rosethorn's romantic relationship. Not because I don't want wlw rep (quite the contrary), but because Emelan is one of the very, very few pieces of YA/adult media that doesn't shy away from making deep and meaningful friendships and family relationships front and centre of the series all the way throughout, without feeling the need to have the two main characters hook up at any point. When I was a kid, Rosethorn and Lark's relationship basically seemed like a QPR to me, although I didn't know the word at the time. It was aro rep, I guess, is the right word. I love how synergistic a friendship Lark and Rosethorn had - they have this vibe that is lovely to read about. If this is the perfect, lightning-in-a-bottle setup for a QPR, why then can't we have one? A deep, strong, enduring, years-long best-friendship between two grown women (who are living together) that doesn't need a one-sentence mention of romantic love to legitimise it? A lifestyle (in fiction) where two adults *can* cohabit for years, co-parent, co-'adult', and also be lifelong best friends/know each other intimately without a skerrick of the R word on either side? And then, bang, in two sentences, it got the hi-gloss pink-and-red magic-fairy-dust treatment. Amatonormativity takes the reins, again. Friendship plays second fiddle - again. Even in a fandom where friendship and familial relationships are not only the bread and butter, but are so lovingly and deftly threaded together, with such care and forethought. The issue, of course, is that there aren’t enough seats at the LGBTQ+ rep table for every colour of the rainbow, so we all end up ‘competing’ (in the most amicable sense of the word) for screen time, and we all lose out as a result. We need a hell of a lot more fiction dismantling amatonormativity (and whatever the ace equivalent is – sex-normativity?) as well as a lot more fiction celebrating wlw relationships. (To be absolutely clear, I ship L/R as much as the next person and I don’t want to take away from anyone’s wlw rep, especially with POC characters. It is definitely major wishful thinking on my part that Tammy would’ve known the word ‘aro’ in 2010 or whenever WOTE came out. It’s just disappointing that ten years on, there is such a paucity of aro characters in fiction.)
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