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Post by devilinthedetails on Jan 6, 2019 10:34:26 GMT 10
This thread grew out of both Rosie's religion thread in the Tortall section (since there was a point I wanted to make regarding Carthaki religion but I realized that it would be talking about the Numair books on the wrong board so I wanted to use the appropriate forum) and also my abiding feeling that sometimes Carthak's advanced society and tolerance for cultural/ethnic diversity is underestimated by Tamora Pierce herself often in order to glorify Tortall and its very progressive rulers. So I wanted to create a thread where we could discuss and acknowledge some ways that Carthak is more "modern" than Tortall. To start I will cite some of my examples, focusing particularly on the first Numair book.
1. An even broader range of gods and goddesses seem to be worshipped in Carthak than in Tortall. The number of different chapels and temples at the University was amazing to read about, and the glossary at the end of the books contained references to new deities that reinforced just how many gods and goddesses were freely worshipped in Carthak. Such tolerance of religious diversity is very modern and rare in human history. I totally think Carthak should be celebrated for displaying it in the Numair books.
2. Carthaki society seemed to accept openly homosexual men in a way that the Tortall of Kel's and Alanna's time never would. Carthak seems to have advanced farther than Tortall in accepting sexual diversity. I think that deserves attention and acknowledgement.
3. Carthak has this very structured university that has trained mages and scholars for centuries. Meanwhile Tortall is just starting to build its own university. Carthak's university is an amazing achievement, and I think it is an awesome testimony to how embracing of diversity Carthak is that they are able to draw in talents like Varice and Lindhall from around the world.
Those are my three main examples. I would love to see some of yours or discuss these in more depth if anyone is interested.
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Post by westernsunset on Jan 23, 2019 9:22:08 GMT 10
I never thought about the university thing, but now that you've pointed it out... It reminds me of how the oldest university that's still in operation today is in Morocco, and it predates the oldest European university by over 100 years. And as much as I love seeing LGBTQ rep in books, you all know this, I don't know if I buy it, in Carthak's case. I mean, obviously, the society is more accepting but why? If Tortall is so not accepting, if we have no openly gay people, what's the reason for the difference? Sexual politics may be too much to get into in a young adult book but I want answers!
I mean, I have my own headcanons, but they're not very strong.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Jan 23, 2019 13:29:24 GMT 10
westernsunset, I didn't know about the first university still in operation today being located in Morocco. That's so cool. I admit that I was fascinated by the idea of the university in Carthak from the time it was mentioned in the first Alanna book, so Carthak is very linked to its university in my mind. The way that homosexuality is treated in the first Numair book is nice to read in that homosexuality seems to be almost casually accepted by Carthaki society but it does seem almost idealistically modern at the same time. I could believe that the Carthaki are more accepting of homosexuality than Tortallans because as an empire they probably had to learn how to integrate diverse races and religions so perhaps accepting different sexualities is an extension of that. From a world building perspective, I also had the impression that Tortall was based on medieval Western European countries while Carthak had a bit more of the classical influence borrowing more from ancient Egyptian and Roman cultures. I know that ancient Romans tended to be more accepting of homosexuality than medieval Europeans though with problematic issues of consent regarding slavery and age so it wouldn't necessarily surprise me if those issues existed in Carthak but were never mentioned in a YA book. A lot of that is not in-universe explanation, though, so like you I would love more in-universe answers though sadly that may end up not happening. At least we can imagine and discuss the information we have as well as our head canons.
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Post by westernsunset on Jan 26, 2019 9:18:41 GMT 10
devilinthedetails wow I literally never thought about Carthak being like Egypt/Rome where homosexuality was more accepted. I don't know where I thought she borrowed the gladiators from if not Rome but now that you're pointing it out...wow I totally see it now. That makes a lot more sense. Even with that though, they're both right across a small sea, how is it SO different?! I'm not gonna lie, making Carthak Rome and Tortall England helps it a lot.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Jan 26, 2019 14:20:48 GMT 10
devilinthedetails wow I literally never thought about Carthak being like Egypt/Rome where homosexuality was more accepted. I don't know where I thought she borrowed the gladiators from if not Rome but now that you're pointing it out...wow I totally see it now. That makes a lot more sense. Even with that though, they're both right across a small sea, how is it SO different?! I'm not gonna lie, making Carthak Rome and Tortall England helps it a lot. I probably noticed the Roman parallels right away since I'm a huge Roman history buff (Ancient Rome is one of my favorite historical civilizations) which I blame on my years of high school Latin classes. I agree with you that the gladiator fights definitely do seem to be inspired by Ancient Rome. Glad the comparison to Ancient Rome helps makes Carthaki acceptance of homosexuality make a bit more sense to you. I always love it when my head canon works well for others You are right about them only being separated by a small seas, though. I admit that sometimes I imagine the sea as a bit bigger in my head to make the substantial differences between the cultures make a bit more sense.
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Post by azdesertrose on Jan 22, 2023 8:54:32 GMT 10
I wonder if the LGBTQ+ acceptance is more a university thing than a broader-Carthak thing. A lot of times, what flies on campus won't fly far off it; my alma mater is the College of Charleston, and Charleston, South Carolina, is fairly progressive as South Carolina goes but as the rest of the world goes, it's pretty conservative. My classmates and I all knew that sometimes what happens on campus needs to stay on campus so as not to attract unpleasant attention. I think, re Ramasu, he doesn't hide that his partner is another man, but I don't get the impression he's terribly flagrant about it, possibly even that his relationship/marriage is tolerated because of the value Ramasu brings to the university as a healer and teacher of healers. Although, Arram, gods love him, can be pretty oblivious, and even the most observant children don't necessarily think very much about their teachers' love lives (see the Emelan books and the fact that Rosethorn's and Lark's relationship sort of flew over the Circle four's heads until they were a little older). I also see Carthak as a cross between Egypt and Rome; the geography seems more like Egypt but the culture is more Roman, especially regarding the empire. *fist-bump* to devilinthedetails, fellow Latin student, ave! I am very rusty as I haven't really used it much in years but I took two years in high school and two semesters in college. Somewhere I still have my JCL Latin Honor Society pin and my JCL trophies.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Jan 23, 2023 3:06:55 GMT 10
That's a good point that LGBTQ+ acceptance could be more of a university trait than a broader facet of life in Carthak. Certainly universities in our own world tend to be more liberal and embracing of diversity. In addition, it could also be a city versus rural thing. It wouldn't surprise me if cities in Carthak are more socially liberal and accepting of diversity than rural areas much as is seen in our own world. Likewise, I wouldn't be shocked if the Royal University in Tortall is quite a liberal/progressive place and if Tortallan cities like Corus, Port Legann, and Port Caynn are more liberal than rural areas that could be more conservative and traditional in their mindset.
I agree that Arram can be pretty oblivious, and I think it is also a bit in the nature of children to take people and relationships at sort of "face value" (for lack of a better term) and not question them too much. In that way, children sort of have a natural tendency to be quite accepting of everyone which to me reinforces that prejudice is a social construct that is learned and taught rather than something innate to people. So people aren't innately biased against members of the LGBTQ+ community but it is a prejudice that is taught by society and society isn't just a matter of what country someone is in, but also where in the country that person is. Such as whether that person is located in a university or urban setting that might be more liberal, progressive, and embracing of diversity or if one is in a more rural area that would tend to be more conservative, traditionalist, and valuing conformity over diversity.
Carthak also seems like a multi-ethnic empire so it wouldn't surprise me if different ethnic and cultural groups had varying views on LGBTQ+ acceptance.
I think you are right that Carthak is a bit of a cross between Egypt and Rome. The geography and some of the architecture and cuisine makes me think of Egypt, but a lot of the culture surrounding the empire elements reminds me of Rome.
I am fairly rusty at my Latin too, haha, but like you, I have my Latin Honor Society pin somewhere!
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Post by azdesertrose on Jan 23, 2023 11:18:25 GMT 10
In Arram's defense, how much time do children, even teens, spend thinking about their teachers' personal lives? It wouldn't have come up except Ramasu's husband brought them food, but I do like how Arram's reaction is basically, "Oh, okay, cool, now back to learning."
Probably true that the various cultures that comprise the Carthaki Empire have different views on any number of issues, LGBTQ+ acceptance among them; I think Arram, coming from a mercantile culture, just doesn't care what people do in their personal lives as long as no one is being harmed (which lands pretty neatly with my own opinions, I must admit--bby!Arram feels a lot like a male, magic-wielding bby!me, truly).
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