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Post by Rosie on Oct 29, 2018 22:13:26 GMT 10
So! There was a discussion relating to Sarai on tumblr a week or so ago, and I thought it might be interesting to see what your thoughts are! I've mostly copy-pasted, but the actual thread is here. Me:ladylingua:Me:ladylingua:Thoughts? How do you view Sarai? (ladylingua made some excellent comments about Tammy's dealings with a certain kind of women, which I'll make into a separate thread)
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Post by devilinthedetails on Oct 30, 2018 0:09:47 GMT 10
Interesting topic and fascinating thread that you linked to, Rosie. I've been thinking quite a bit about Sarai, Dove, and their relationship with one another quite a bit recently since I've been writing fanfic about them recently (the One Sentence Weeks event challenged me to to that-so that was awesome) so hopefully I can share some of my thoughts in a way that makes sense.
I agree with you that it was frustrating that Aly didn't trust Sarai with the revolution information, because I feel like Sarai's decision to elope is Zaimid is rooted in the hopelessness she feels about not only her arranged marriage but the overall fate of the raka people. If she knew there was the revolution plot, I think she probably would have stayed in the Copper Isles to fight on behalf of her people.
I hadn't known that Sarai was originally slated to die in the Trickster's Duology until reading that thread, but honestly, that sort of arc would have been more consistent with the Sarai we meet in the first Trickster book. The Sarai we meet in Trickster's Choice is not afraid to pick up a sword if she thinks she has to, so if she had gone down fighting in Trickster's Queen that could feel like a natural progression for her character. Honestly I'm disappointed that Tammy would change Sarai's fate just because her death would make someone sad. If Sarai's character arc was leading to her death, that's what should have happened. I would feel differently if Sarai's fate were changed for compelling character reasons but if the choice was to keep someone from being sad at the expense of the story and Sarai's character development, that lessens the artistic merits of the story a lot to me:(
I think it's a good point that Sarai is viewed through Aly's eyes, and so Aly's issues with Sarai might be more about Aly projecting characteristics of herself that she doesn't like on Sarai. I personally don't agree that Sarai's ability to flirt and be a sexual person would make her unfit to be queen. For instance, Queen Elizabeth I (though she never married) was very adept at making powerful men hope they could marry her and whatnot. I could see a queen Sarai being able to use her sexuality to her advantage in such a manner. I also see shades of Elizabeth I in Dove with Dove's cleverness and political astuteness from a young age but that might be getting a bit off topic.
The problem that we see Sarai through Aly's eyes connects to one of my overarching problems with the Trickster's Duology: that it's from Aly's perspective. I really don't think the Trickster's Duology should have been told through Aly's perspective because it wasn't Aly's (or any other Tortallan's) story. It was a story of the Copper Isles that in my opinion should have been told through Dove and/or Sarai's viewpoint. I feel like the Trickster's Duology would have been better if Aly wasn't part of the story and the story focused on Sarai and Dove. Because I think even with Sarai's decision to elope with Zaimid, it could have been very empowering, taking her life and destiny into her hands, from her perspective. If Sarai is the heroine of her own story, here she is escaping an arranged marriage, marrying someone she seems to love, and going to live in an empire where racial strife largely doesn't seem to be an issue (I could see the racial relationships in Carthak being hugely appealing to Sarai).
I find it interesting too that Sarai is judged negatively by the Trickster's Duology for fleeing the Copper Isles, but Thayet isn't condemned by the narrative in Lioness Rampant for taking refuge in Tortall from Sarain. In fact, there is a consistent strain of it being wonderful for people like Daine, Numair, Onua, and Sarge to find refuge in Tortall, but apparently the same doesn't hold true for those who have the audacity to seek a better life in Carthak, which I think could very much seem a land of opportunity to a lot of people. To be clear, I don't think that the people who seek refuge in Tortall should be condemned, but I believe the same courtesy should be extended to Sarai and the books don't seem willing to do that, which makes me sad.
I absolutely hate that Aly and Dove spoke about needing to put a muzzle on Sarai and about Sarai being stupid. Nothing in the books ever suggested to me that Sarai was stupid. Sarai was outgoing and liked to flirt, but she was very curious about the broader world and about different political systems. Being outgoing and flirtatious doesn't mean Sarai was stupid, and all too often women who are outspoken get shamed as stupid or get muzzled. It's especially galling to read because I think we are supposed to agree with such sexism. Also there is the fundamental failure to realize that Sarai would probably change her behavior, becoming less outspoken and more subtle, were she informed of the revolution and what was being done to address issues she was attempting to call attention to, so, yeah, all in all, lot of issues with how the narrative tries to make us look down at Sarai for being outspoken.
The comparison to Thayet in Trickster's Choice definitely felt like the story was hitting us over the head with how great a queen Sarai could be (I think I kind of rolled my eyes at the blatancy of it when I first read Trickster's Choice and Trickster's Queen hadn't been published yet). Then we are suddenly meant to accept that Sarai would never have made a good queen in the next book. A very abrupt and bizarre shift.
I do think there were notable similarities between Sarai and Thayet in Trickster's Choice but there were also some promising differences to explore. Sarai seemed for lack of better phrasing more of a sexual being than Thayet, who in Lioness Rampant seems more sexualized by others (including Alanna, who wants to play matchmaker between her and Jon from the moment they meet)than sexually aware herself. Thayet seems to know that she is beautiful in Lioness Rampant but I don't remember really seeing her flirt in Lioness Rampant. More she just seems to put Jon in his place and respond in a way that Jon appears to find somewhat ambigious to his advances. Those differences between Sarai and Thayet could have been explored with nuance in Trickster's Queen. Instead Sarai's development seemed to fall at the wayside, which is disappointing.
I also think that you are right to hint at a sort of double standard with how Jon's flirtations are treated compared to how Sarai's are treated. Sarai's flirtations are treated as dreadful proof that she wouldn't make a good queen (which looking at the real world isn't the case) but Jon isn't disqualified from being a good king by his romantic entanglements with Delia and Josiane. I never considered things in that light before, but it's very true and indicative of the overall pattern in Tammy's works where flirtatious men can be heroes (and their flirting is normally treated as amusing) while flirtatious women are all evil or "stupid" (with their flirtations being treated as sinister).
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Post by mistrali on Oct 31, 2018 15:15:34 GMT 10
Aly:
As devil said, Aly herself shouldn’t have been in the plot. Since the Copper Isles only has tenuous ties to Tortall, there’s no reason to include a protag from there unless it’s vital to the story. Aly’s whole escapade at the beginning of TC is a transparent plot device to get her to a foreign country, in the most... I don’t know, the riskiest & most adventurous way possible.
Because of Aly's inclusion as MC, I feel that neither of the Balitang girls are developed enough, even as secondary characters, to really stand out as potential queen candidates. Writing the Trickster Duology from their perspective would not only have thrust them into the spotlight and given us a wider view of the whole Isles (an inside perspective), it would have eliminated the large part of TC which is devoted to Aly’s trying to find out what the servants are hiding, as well as Tammy’s need to resort to OOC and implausible behaviour on the part of the raka (the common raka being aware of the plot, the servants’ lack of subtlety in concealing it). Also, we hardly see a relationship between the two sisters.
A lot of these problems arise from Aly being the centre of the narrative and the Balitangs not being developed enough. Dove’s a spanner in the works. She’s a prime candidate for the Cunning One, but the plot shunts her towards rightful queen.
If Sarai had died, it might have played out more organically, but even then, we would’ve needed to see Dove grow and learn.
I love the theory (Watsonianly) that Aly is projecting. In TC, it is Dove who approaches goatherd!Aly to ask if she can give her any information. Dove, not Sarai, eventually becomes friends with Aly. It’s Dove whom Aly admires, because she likes to think of herself as cunning — but the narrative doesn’t bear this out. Aly is, in fact, so unsubtle as a spy that even Lokeij’s pointed advice about parrots and sparrows doesn’t quell her.
Even with help (Kyprioth), it’s only towards the middle of TC that we start to see her actually intelligence-gathering in earnest.
——-
Sarai’s Networking Skills/People Skills:
In TQ it’s made clear that Sarai is the centre of a circle of sycophants, whereas Dove’s friendships and acquaintances (Nomru, Aly herself, Edgecliff) are not only portrayed as equal to her in intellect and education, but useful to the rebellion.
But this goes on in TC as well. Aside from the moment in TC when Sarai stops to talk to all the villagers, we don’t see much evidence of her people skills in action. There’s a lot of page time given to Dove’s interactions with Aly, not so much to Sarai.
I wish we’d had more opportunities to see Sarai not as an abstract ideal, but actually using her skills to take a more active part in the plot, to build a rapport with the people. Perhaps Sarai could’ve been the “warm-hearted people lover” and the wise older sister, and Dove could have been The Cunning One and handled (or tried to) the spying side of things. This would’ve eliminated Dove as a potential “threat” to Sarai. Instead Sarai mostly comes across as impetuous to Dove’s cool-headed, and her passion is portrayed as something to be tempered by her sister’s practicality. Where do we see the opposite: emotional intelligence triumphing over coolness?
Even during TC, Sarai is... targeted by the narrative for unequal relationships. This is largely due to the story being from Aly’s POV. Yes, Sarai is sixteen and isolated from her peers, but we see her fall head over heels for Bronau despite learning that he is racist towards luarin. One imagines that she confronted him about his feelings, but if such a discussion took place, it is relegated offscreen.
It’s notable that Tammy has Sarai say she would “lose her head” and end up sleeping with Bronau if Aly were not there to chaperone her. Notice, too, the very idea that she needs a chaperone in the first place to keep from ‘going too far’ with Bronau. The plot needs Aly to be there, so she can know what’s going on, but it’s a clumsy way of having that happen. It’s not a good message to send, either: Sarai should be self-sufficient enough not to need (or want!) a chaperone and, particularly in a world where contraceptive charms exist, by age sixteen she should be well aware of the risks of pregnancy.
Instead she is infantilised by Aly, and chastised and criticised by her twelve-year-old (!) sister:
“Aly twiddled her thumbs. She tried to remember the passionate speeches that had been addressed to her. Had they been this nonsensical? Would she have swallowed them? Perhaps when I was twelve, she thought, then grinned. Being the daughter of the Lioness and of a spymaster, she hadn’t been romantic even then, well before she’d had extensive dealings with the people who made up her father’s world.” Dove, too, gets the tick of approval as being ‘not romantic’. Not so Sarai.
I can sort of see what Tammy was going for here - yes, Sarai has a crush, and yes, Bronau is much older than her and his views are obviously bigoted. Presumably, we're supposed to see a naïve, idealistic and romantic girl half-carried away by her own feelings, and a younger, more worldly-wise sister who is not a little jealous. But there is something odd about Sarai's acquiescence to what amounts to voyeurism at worst and invasion of her privacy at best. She isn’t angry, or resistant. She’s just ambivalent. But then, how does this square with her apparent sincerity/infatuation?
Plainly Aly feels she doesn't need a chaperone when romancing Nawat. Not once, moreover, does she question the logic of entering a relationship with a crow-man - is she, too, head over heels in love? The narration doesn't tell us. Likewise, we never get a glimpse into Dove's head. We only see her and Aly shaking their heads over Sarai's "gooey-eyed" romance.
Or are we to read Sarai as prevaricating when she says that, if not for Aly, she might've gone further with Bronau? (People who know anything about romantic relationships, please feel free to correct me if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick!) ————
Sarai is perpetually restless, a fantastic rider and has aspirations to sword fight, but these are hardly the attributes of a queen in 476 HE. They may be the attributes of a warrior queen of old, but we are clearly expected to believe that Dove is the one with the chops to manipulate people, and that her verbal acuity will prevail.
For example, it is Dove, not Sarai, who distracts Bronau when he goes on his racist rant about “wild pigs”. She also sidetracks Lady Uniunu in TQ, to Aly's admiration.
“[Sarai] could not keep the trouble from her face as Aly quoted Bronau’s latest piece of correspondence, any more than her parents could. Only Dove showed real curiosity and appreciation of what Aly had learned.” - TC.
Never mind that Sarai’s ‘trouble’ is probably a sign of her conflicted feelings towards Bronau, or entirely appropriate concern for whatever is going on in her hometown and her country. Never mind that Sarai’s not showing “curiosity and appreciation” could be due to any number of things, not least her lack of knowledge about the rebellion. Just because she isn’t showing appreciation towards Aly is no reason to think, as Aly evidently does, that Sarai doesn’t appreciate the full importance of Bronau’s news. What Aly focuses on at least twice during TC is Sarai’s inability to conceal her emotions. The narrative makes no attempt to mitigate this.
Dove as Heart in TQ
Dove’s reaction to the riot in TQ is much more impassioned than I would expect from her (throwing furniture). Her moment of humour with the flower seller towards the end of TQ is also a clear indication that she is being established as The Heart. I wonder if her moment of tenderness to the kudarung is meant to indicate this as well.
Agree that this is rather shoehorned in.
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Sarai
Nov 1, 2018 1:20:29 GMT 10
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Post by devilinthedetails on Nov 1, 2018 1:20:29 GMT 10
So much yes to a lot of your points, mistrali. On Aly:I think Aly being in the story and especially the heroine of the story created large structural, character, and thematic problems (white savior and white man's burden implications) that wouldn't have existed if Aly were excised from the plot and the focus was rightly put on the Balitang sisters, our queen candidates. I understand that Tammy wanted to write books that answered fan questions about the life of Alanna's daughter, but I don't think those books should have been the Trickster Duology. I think the Trickster Duology and the Daughter of the Lioness stories should have been separate concepts since those two story ideas just do not end up melding well together. It would have been cool to see the friction between Aly and Alanna if Aly wants to pursue a different path than Alanna's warrior one. I especially would have loved it if Aly wanted to be a court lady, maybe pursuing a diplomatic path, which would require Alanna (and possibly Tammy) to confront a lot of her nasty stereotypes about women who don't want to fight. I'd love getting a glimpse of the convent life and the great women there who aren't warriors but still worthwhile to get to know. And I would love for the Trickster's Duology to have focused more on Dove and Sarai as characters and their relationship to one another. Aly isn't positioned closely enough to them (she still has that outsider perspective) to provide the insights we really need to connect with Dove and Sarai on a deeper level or to appreciate the complexities of their relationship. It also would have resolved the literal deus ex machina that is necessary for Aly to have her position in the Balitang household, thus adverting many of the structural issues early on in Trickster's Choice. If we needed to have the prophecy (I'd kind of prefer no prophecy), it would have been cool to see Dove or a raka in the role of the Cunning One rather than Aly. I think you have a good point about Aly projecting herself onto Dove, sort of admiring in Dove the traits that she likes to believe that she has. Aly, as you say, likes to believe that she is cunning so she admires those traits in Dove. On Sarai:I like to imagine that the portrayals of Dove's and Sarai's circles are the product of a biased narrator (Aly) but the problem is that the story never seems to confront that bias or show it to be flawed, so it really ends up looking like the truth. (A lot of the problems in Tammy's books for me come from moments that could be signs of a biased narrator in another work but in Tammy's stories read like they are truths the reader should totally agree with--in other words, it's not just the narrator being wrong; it reads like the author being wrong too, which creates issues for me when I read Tammy's works.) I agree that it would have been great to see more of Sarai interacting with people and generally displaying her people skills. We are told, especially in Trickster's Choice, that she has them, but we don't often get to see them on display. I do also find it strange how Sarai is condemned for her impetuosity but Alanna (who is way more of a hot-head to me) largely has that treated as a comic quirk along with her temper. Jon, also, is notably impetuous during the Tusaine war and in wanting to go after the Ysandir (though Roger's magical manipulation likely had a hand in that as well), yet his qualifications as king aren't questioned. Passion in Alanna, Jon, and Thayet is great leadership, and a seeming lack of passion in both Roalds (Jon's father and son) is treated as bad leadership yet all the sudden with Sarai passion is bad and Dove's dispassion is what a leader needs. I tend to question the narrative in a lot of these cases since for instance I think Roald (Jon's son) handles being a Crown Prince much better than Jon does, which I like to think is Jon sort of learning from his mistakes and guiding his son in a different direction, but I have to read against the narrative Tammy wants to beat into our heads about that. In general, I think that Tammy falls into the trap of underrating introverts and diplomatic type leaders in favor of extroverts and warrior type leaders but to have her abruptly change her tune when Sarai and Dove were involved was weird. I hated that Sarai basically says she needs Aly as chaperone so she won't "lose her head." I would have been okay with her asking for a chaperone if it was done because she wanted to protect her reputation for political/social reasons, but to have her describe herself as needing a chaperone so she doesn't lose her head was really degrading to her character and really to women in general. Women can be passionate without being so unable to control themselves that they need a chaperone. Dove is also really young to be judging Sarai's romantic relationships. Plenty of people at twelve think they'll never fall head over heels for someone and end up being wrong. It's easy to deride romanticism in others, but then fall victim to it yourself as it were. Dove has very limited experience on which to draw to judge Sarai. Regardless of what Tammy wants to think, twelve-year-olds don't know a ton about romance. They may think they do, but they don't, and that holds true whether they are into flirting or not. It's okay for Dove not to be interested in romance, but the way she is so judgmental of Sarai rubs me the wrong way. Aly also really doesn't have much room to judge Sarai for Sarai's romances when Aly gets married and has children with a crow-man very young. Honestly both Alanna and Daine also engage in romances with older men who are in ostensible mentoring positions over them, and Daine's age gap with Numair was so large that Tammy basically had to retcon it to make it more acceptable, so it becomes bizarre that it's only Sarai's romance that is treated as problematic. With Aly in particular, it is a case of those who live in glass houses maybe shouldn't throw stones... To be honest, when Trickster's Choice set Sarai up as a fantastic rider who wants to fight, I thought she was being set up as queen, because that had real echoes of Thayet. Tammy seems to approve of fighting queens like Thayet and even Shinko has to be trained as a warrior. One of the main things that we see Thayet do is fight (and in the first Daine book, both Kally and Roald speak as if it is their mother who does more fighting than their father). I don't even know if Tammy truly breaks that mold with Dove since Dove also seems trained and at least somewhat competent in fighting. I think Sarai's trouble in the situation you described is entirely appropriate and a sign of maturity whereas Dove's reaction of curiosity may actually be indicative of less maturity (certainly less emotional maturity). Also Aly shows an astonishing ignorance of human emotions there along with a healthy dose of smugness. On Dove: I definitely think that Dove's character in TQ was changed, making her a bit more impassioned and better at interacting with common people than I think we saw before. It was like Tammy had to create her "perfect" queen: the right amount of passionate, bookish but also able to fight since Dove does train with weapons. Dove wasn't perfect to begin with but she became perfect when Tammy wanted to elevate her to queen without killing Sarai. That was also when Sarai's characterization really fell at the wayside.
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Post by mistrali on Nov 1, 2018 5:41:57 GMT 10
devilinthedetails Yup, I noticed the Daine/Numair and Alanna/George parallel as well. I wonder if Tammy got backlash for having such a large age gap, and then decided to go a 180 and create this unequal/unhealthy relationship where the older man is a sleazebag and takes advantage of the woman. I mean, I don’t really think Bronau takes advantage, as such, because when Sarai isn’t holding the Idiot Ball she can take care of herself. But it’s quite obvious that Aly sees Sarai as being vulnerable. I totally agree that they should’ve been done as separate stories, and I love the idea of Aly going to court! Yes, the narration rather nose-leads the reader, doesn’t it? When I was a kid, I didn’t even notice Sarai’s chaperone comment and now I’m wondering how I could’ve missed it. I’ve said this before, but Dove and Sarai really feel tokenistic to me. They’re there solely to be half-raka/queen-candidates. All the raka need to take much more of a starring role in their own story. Daja’s skin colour is handled really well in the Emelan books, and even Briar’s and Lark’s. They don’t exist as representations of their race, which S&D kind of do, The ‘projecting’ theory was yours - I just ran with it This whole thread has me planning an AU. Whether I’ll inflict it on the fandom is another question entirely. “I do also find it strange how Sarai is condemned for her impetuosity but Alanna (who is way more of a hot-head to me) largely has that treated as a comic quirk along with her temper. Jon, also, is notably impetuous during the Tusaine war and in wanting to go after the Ysandir (though Roger's magical manipulation likely had a hand in that as well), yet his qualifications as king aren't questioned. Passion in Alanna, Jon, and Thayet is great leadership, and a seeming lack of passion in both Roalds (Jon's father and son) is treated as bad leadership yet all the sudden with Sarai passion is bad and Dove's dispassion is what a leader needs. I tend to question the narrative in a lot of these cases since for instance I think Roald (Jon's son) handles being a Crown Prince much better than Jon does, which I like to think is Jon sort of learning from his mistakes and guiding his son in a different direction, but I have to read against the narrative Tammy wants to beat into our heads about that. In general, I think that Tammy falls into the trap of underrating introverts and diplomatic type leaders in favor of extroverts and warrior type leaders but to have her abruptly change her tune when Sarai and Dove were involved was weird.” Great points about Jon vs Roald! If Tammy had followed through with killing off Sarai, she would’ve had an easier time writing Dove as the one who is promised, because she would’ve been the default queen candidate anyway. As it stands, she tried to force Dove as future queen in a really short space of time, and it doesn’t really work.
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Sarai
Nov 1, 2018 8:24:25 GMT 10
Post by devilinthedetails on Nov 1, 2018 8:24:25 GMT 10
mistraliI definitely think that it is possible that Tammy received so much backlash on Daine/Numair having such a large age gap that she decided to show a relationship where the older man was sleazy. Glad you love the idea of Aly going to court! I really would love to see more of the politics at court. I always enjoy that in fantasy. It might have been because I was in high school when the Trickster's Duology came out but I definitely felt nose-lead by the narration as you put it. Don't feel bad about missing the Sarai's chaperone line. I feel like I missed all kinds of implications in stories when I was younger. I was so much more innocent back then... Dove and Sarai do have a tokenistic vibe to them, and I never felt as if all the implications of their half-raka status was explored or their characters were fully developed. I absolutely agree that all the rake needed to play a much more prominent role in what should have been their story, not Aly's. I've been re-reading the Emelan books recently and overall think that race is handled much better in them than in Tortall since I think Tammy drops the ball quite a bit with her portrayal of the Bazhir and to a lesser extent her treatment of Carthak. I love your expansion of the projection theory to include Aly admiring Dove's traits since she would like to think of herself as having the traits Dove does. Glad you liked the Jon vs Roald points. I was afraid I was getting a bit rambly there, ha ha. I absolutely agree that if Tammy had followed through with killing off Sarai, it would have been easier for her to establish Dove as the queen that was promised because there wouldn't really have been another candidate for the reader to consider. As it was, like you said, she had to force the idea of Dove the queen into a short space of time, which ended up backfiring.
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Post by Idleness on Nov 1, 2018 19:53:12 GMT 10
I agree with some points raised here and disagree with others on Sarai's characterisation.
So regardless of what Tammy did or did not originally plan for Sarai, but my reading of it as written:
I agree that Aly is an unreliable narrator, and the projection theory makes sense to me. However, I think in TC, Sarai is not presented as stupid so much as, up until the start of the story, sheltered and fairly privileged. Mequen and Winna I think are pragmatic parents and don't keep them in ignorance, but they do also try to protect the girls from the worst ugliness of the Isles' politics. Sarai full well knows that it's a Very, Very Bad if the King has a sinister dream about someone in his court, but it's also never been her family before now so the danger has never been personal. So off they go to Tanair, and things are still not all good again, but they settle into a routine. They're so far away that it becomes easy to forget, at least for a while, the machinations in Rajmaut. Nothing truly catastrophic has happened to them yet, so the danger feels less imminent and more and more abstract. She has a pretty strong idealistic streak, and a confidence that comes from being near universally liked and admired, and never really having struggled or failed at something. Sarai's also a girl who likes a bit of novelty and stimulation, and she's really, really bored out of her skull at Tanair. All of this makes her a little bit over-confident.
So I never really read her "personality change" in TQ as out of character. Because at the end of TC, the man who'd been saying all those pretty words to her and showering her with jewels turns up with a bunch of thugs, mortally wounds her father, and then when she picks up the sword to defend her family (as she was so successful in doing with the assassin), he just bats her aside and patronises her. So she's just experienced a huge and (to her) shocking betrayal, topped off with her first really distressing failure at something everyone had been telling her she was really good at, at a time when the stakes couldn't have been higher. I think she drops the sword lessons because she couldn't get past what in her mind was an abject failure to a degree she's never experienced before. And it's not novel any more; there are too many negative emotions attached to the activity. She becomes more cynical about people's motives, more dissatisfied and pessimistic, and more reckless. I think it's actually a pretty understandable reaction to some pretty traumatic events - and she is only 16. Aly and Dove think her more reckless actions are stupid, sure, and in the context of having a paranoid Imajane running around making people disappear for minor offences, I can certainly empathise with that point of view. But at the same time, Sarai isn't actually presented as if she didn't know what she was doing; she is definitely acting out and pushing the envelope though. She's definitely aware of the prophecy, and she is also definitely perceptive enough to know that there's stuff going on around her, that it is centred on her being the twice royal in the prophesy, and that absolutely no one will tell her anything. How's she meant to function as Queen if her people won't tell her what's going on? It's not an auspicious start. So she decides she's Sick Of This S***; that she's not going to let herself be sacrificed on the altar of some wishy-washy prophecy that might or might not be about her. It's actually when she truly exercises her power. She probably understands that people will be angry at her and feel betrayed, she's not daft, but the expectation on her was probably equally intolerable. We could probably argue forever on whether it was an admirable choice, a cowardly choice, or a bit of both, but to be honest, it's an understandable choice and I can't say I wouldn't GTFO too if I was her.
Anyway - I was going to respond to some other stuff, but it's late on a school night and I need to organise my thoughts some more. Lol.
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Post by devilinthedetails on Nov 1, 2018 22:46:41 GMT 10
I agree with some points raised here and disagree with others on Sarai's characterisation. So regardless of what Tammy did or did not originally plan for Sarai, but my reading of it as written: I agree that Aly is an unreliable narrator, and the projection theory makes sense to me. However, I think in TC, Sarai is not presented as stupid so much as, up until the start of the story, sheltered and fairly privileged. Mequen and Winna I think are pragmatic parents and don't keep them in ignorance, but they do also try to protect the girls from the worst ugliness of the Isles' politics. Sarai full well knows that it's a Very, Very Bad if the King has a sinister dream about someone in his court, but it's also never been her family before now so the danger has never been personal. So off they go to Tanair, and things are still not all good again, but they settle into a routine. They're so far away that it becomes easy to forget, at least for a while, the machinations in Rajmaut. Nothing truly catastrophic has happened to them yet, so the danger feels less imminent and more and more abstract. She has a pretty strong idealistic streak, and a confidence that comes from being near universally liked and admired, and never really having struggled or failed at something. Sarai's also a girl who likes a bit of novelty and stimulation, and she's really, really bored out of her skull at Tanair. All of this makes her a little bit over-confident. So I never really read her "personality change" in TQ as out of character. Because at the end of TC, the man who'd been saying all those pretty words to her and showering her with jewels turns up with a bunch of thugs, mortally wounds her father, and then when she picks up the sword to defend her family (as she was so successful in doing with the assassin), he just bats her aside and patronises her. So she's just experienced a huge and (to her) shocking betrayal, topped off with her first really distressing failure at something everyone had been telling her she was really good at, at a time when the stakes couldn't have been higher. I think she drops the sword lessons because she couldn't get past what in her mind was an abject failure to a degree she's never experienced before. And it's not novel any more; there are too many negative emotions attached to the activity. She becomes more cynical about people's motives, more dissatisfied and pessimistic, and more reckless. I think it's actually a pretty understandable reaction to some pretty traumatic events - and she is only 16. Aly and Dove think her more reckless actions are stupid, sure, and in the context of having a paranoid Imajane running around making people disappear for minor offences, I can certainly empathise with that point of view. But at the same time, Sarai isn't actually presented as if she didn't know what she was doing; she is definitely acting out and pushing the envelope though. She's definitely aware of the prophecy, and she is also definitely perceptive enough to know that there's stuff going on around her, that it is centred on her being the twice royal in the prophesy, and that absolutely no one will tell her anything. How's she meant to function as Queen if her people won't tell her what's going on? It's not an auspicious start. So she decides she's Sick Of This S***; that she's not going to let herself be sacrificed on the altar of some wishy-washy prophecy that might or might not be about her. It's actually when she truly exercises her power. She probably understands that people will be angry at her and feel betrayed, she's not daft, but the expectation on her was probably equally intolerable. We could probably argue forever on whether it was an admirable choice, a cowardly choice, or a bit of both, but to be honest, it's an understandable choice and I can't say I wouldn't GTFO too if I was her. Anyway - I was going to respond to some other stuff, but it's late on a school night and I need to organise my thoughts some more. Lol. I think you bring a different perspective and raise some important points to consider. I believe Sarai's journey as you describe it could have been truly compelling and even empowering. If the story were told at least partially from Sarai's perspective, I imagine we would get something similar to what you describe: sheltered and idealistic girl undergoes a terrible trauma that makes her not want to fight anymore, this trauma is added to by seeing a people she is identified with oppressed and she has no real way to help them out (or any information on what is truly being done to help those people beyond some nebulous plot relating to a prophecy in which she supposedly figures), and then there is the final horror of an arranged marriage to a child king. So, taking her destiny into her hands rather than trusting in some weird prophecy, she flees to the most powerful empire in her world (ruled by someone who is mixed race like herself) with someone she loves who actually seems intelligent and compassionate. For her, this could be very bittersweet, triumphant and defiant but also very sad for having to leave her country and people that to her knowledge she can't save behind. Perhaps it is somewhat standard fare for a fantasy heroine but it's still a sympathetic character arc, and the setting not being a typical fantasy Europe and Sarai's mixed racial identity would I think contribute to a fresh feel to the story. I just don't think that we get enough of Sarai's perspective since it is all filtered through Aly's very biased lenses for that story to fully be conveyed to me. I really think the story suffers for being from Aly's perspective since we don't get the insight I feel we need into Sarai's journey or Dove's, nor do we get to understand much of the sisters' relationship with one another or with their stepmother. Mostly we are told things about Sarai and Dove's characters and their relationships with one another and Winna rather than really shown them in my view. I just feel like the Trickster's Duology would have been so much stronger if it were truly the story of the Balitang sisters rather than Aly's. I am like you in that I don't blame Sarai for eloping with Zaimid and taking refuge in Carthak but it makes me very uncomfortable that the only time we see a character taking refuge in ethnically diverse Carthak rather than mostly white Tortall that is the time a person's right to take refuge is questioned. It's never questioned in the case of the clearest comparable: Thayet. Thayet is never treated as if she might have abandoned her people or not done her duty to Sarain. Indeed she is treated as the perfect queen. Thayet even refuses the offer of the Dominion Jewel, which is much more real than a nebulous prophecy, and nobody criticizes her for that. Because I have a nasty suspicion if Sarai had fled to Tortall to marry a Tortallan prince her story would have been treated very differently. It probably would have taken on an almost fairy tale quality like Jon and Thayet's romance.
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Post by mistrali on Nov 2, 2018 8:34:14 GMT 10
Idleness, I think you raise a lot of valid points - in particular, the part about Sarai (and even Dove) being relatively sheltered by their parents and not being used to failure. They’re also very young and the Balitangs live comfortably (relatively speaking), so they can definitely afford not to expose their children to the seamier, backstabbing side of politics. I agree that despite their ties to the royal family, they’ve chosen not to get dragged into all the pettiness at court. After all, Sarai is astute enough to manipulate her suitors in TQ - she knows they’re only interested in her for her looks, and she takes advantage of that to hide her feelings for Zaimid. Though apparently she isn’t bored/dissatisfied enough to change her circle of friends. This is another thing I feel we might’ve been let into, so to speak, had the books been from Sarai’s perspective - we see a lot of family interaction, but not much about their social lives. Speaking for myself only, I definitely don’t see Sarai as actually being stupid or reckless at any point in the duology (Dove and Aly’s opinions notwithstanding). IMO you have valid points about things getting ‘real’ and more personal for Sarai, particularly as she’s cut off from her social circle at Rajmuat. And failure - yes, I can also see her blaming herself for her “failure” to save her father, and it seems like that conflated with all the tumult in the Isles plus the Dunevon thing drove her to leave. Even if she had known about the conspiracy, she might still have wanted to leave. After all, social work is one thing, but being queen and making real policy changes? After a war? At the age of sixteen? That’s no cakewalk. I mean, yes, she might’ve been a symbol of hope to the people or whatever, but that’s still a truckload of responsibility that not everyone can handle. Also, on that note, I wonder what training Dove and Sarai received to prepare them for monarchy. They haven’t been brought up at court, although I guess they’ve spent time there. Dove is exceptionally well read, especially for a thirteen-year-old, and Sarai (we are told) has a way with people. Both of them are good at subtly influencing people and at understanding complex political situations. Sarai cares about people’s welfare. But I’m sure that, despite learning on the job, there are a slew of other facets that a monarch would need to be able to handle (yes, albeit with advisors). I don’t know if I’m making much sense. My objection is, basically, that there is a slew of nuances we don’t see because of Aly’s POV.
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Sarai
Nov 2, 2018 9:46:06 GMT 10
Post by devilinthedetails on Nov 2, 2018 9:46:06 GMT 10
Idleness , I think you raise a lot of valid points - in particular, the part about Sarai (and even Dove) being relatively sheltered by their parents and not being used to failure. They’re also very young and the Balitangs live comfortably (relatively speaking), so they can definitely afford not to expose their children to the seamier, backstabbing side of politics. I agree that despite their ties to the royal family, they’ve chosen not to get dragged into all the pettiness at court. After all, Sarai is astute enough to manipulate her suitors in TQ - she knows they’re only interested in her for her looks, and she takes advantage of that to hide her feelings for Zaimid. Though apparently she isn’t bored/dissatisfied enough to change her circle of friends. This is another thing I feel we might’ve been let into, so to speak, had the books been from Sarai’s perspective - we see a lot of family interaction, but not much about their social lives. Speaking for myself only, I definitely don’t see Sarai as actually being stupid or reckless at any point in the duology (Dove and Aly’s opinions notwithstanding). IMO you have valid points about things getting ‘real’ and more personal for Sarai, particularly as she’s cut off from her social circle at Rajmuat. And failure - yes, I can also see her blaming herself for her “failure” to save her father, and it seems like that conflated with all the tumult in the Isles plus the Dunevon thing drove her to leave. Even if she had known about the conspiracy, she might still have wanted to leave. After all, social work is one thing, but being queen and making real policy changes? After a war? At the age of sixteen? That’s no cakewalk. I mean, yes, she might’ve been a symbol of hope to the people or whatever, but that’s still a truckload of responsibility that not everyone can handle.
Also, on that note, I wonder what training Dove and Sarai received to prepare them for monarchy. They haven’t been brought up at court, although I guess they’ve spent time there. Dove is exceptionally well read, especially for a thirteen-year-old, and Sarai (we are told) has a way with people. Both of them are good at subtly influencing people and at understanding complex political situations. Sarai cares about people’s welfare. But I’m sure that, despite learning on the job, there are a slew of other facets that a monarch would need to be able to handle (yes, albeit with advisors).I don’t know if I’m making much sense. My objection is, basically, that there is a slew of nuances we don’t see because of Aly’s POV. Excellent post. The bolded parts in particular jumped out at me. I think it's a fantasy thing to underrate the difficulty of being a child ruler, but historically being a child ruler wasn't easy, and reigns by child rulers often weren't successful. Putting a child on the throne created troubled times or made troubled times even more difficult. It was rarely a solution to problems. Indeed, in the medieval era in our world it was seen as something as a curse to have a child on the throne. You very much wanted a strong adult ruler in the medieval era to assure social and political stability. That idea I don't think gets enough attention in fantasy discussions but it is a very important one. It is very possible that Sarai wouldn't have wanted to be queen, recognizing that it might create more headaches and heartaches for her and for the Copper Isles in the long run. I agree that Dove and Sarai's education was probably not sufficient for them to seamlessly slip into the role of queen. Both seem well-educated but for instance Sarai had tons of questions about foreign countries that probably someone raised to be queen wouldn't have. Those questions aren't a sign that she is stupid (far from it her curiosity is a sign of intelligence) but certainly of holes in her education you would hope not to see in someone educated to be a queen.
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Post by Idleness on Nov 3, 2018 10:43:03 GMT 10
I am like you in that I don't blame Sarai for eloping with Zaimid and taking refuge in Carthak but it makes me very uncomfortable that the only time we see a character taking refuge in ethnically diverse Carthak rather than mostly white Tortall that is the time a person's right to take refuge is questioned. It's never questioned in the case of the clearest comparable: Thayet. Thayet is never treated as if she might have abandoned her people or not done her duty to Sarain. Indeed she is treated as the perfect queen. Thayet even refuses the offer of the Dominion Jewel, which is much more real than a nebulous prophecy, and nobody criticizes her for that. Because I have a nasty suspicion if Sarai had fled to Tortall to marry a Tortallan prince her story would have been treated very differently. It probably would have taken on an almost fairy tale quality like Jon and Thayet's romance. Mmm, I don't agree that they're actually comparable in the way you're suggesting. Yes, the point of view of the narration is different, and that is part of it, but their contexts are also quite different. By the time we meet Thayet in LR, she's actually all alone in the world except for Buri, and already a refugee. They're on the run from all of the different factions in the civil war, and the people who want to find Thayet either want to kill her or capture her and use her as a pawn to strengthen their own agendas. She can't even rely on her own relations for more than the barest of help. She has no power in her own right in Sarain, and no path to gaining it to the point where she could win a civil war and rule. Sarain has already abandoned her. Thayet herself alludes some of this kind of stuff when she rejects Alanna's offer to take the Jewel and use it to help Sarain. So I think all of this context is part of why Thayet is definitely not judged negatively by the narrative for leaving. And it doesn't hurt that we see this from Alanna's perspective, and has her own agenda as she's already secretly shipping Thayet with Jon, so she's more than happy when Thayet agrees to go to Tortall. There's also no prophecy promising a mixed blood queen who will raise up her people, or something similar, and no indication that there is any expectation from others that she's going to somehow fulfill this kind of role, prophecy or no. We don't get to see it from the perspective of anyone left behind in Sarain who is upset that she left -- if they're even aware of her being alive still. So, Sarai. There's no open civil war; tensions are certainly simmering, but haven't yet boiled over. Her family has a big enough bloc of political allies that the regents still can't afford to openly antagonise them without risking those tensions boiling over in a way they can't control. Her reality in Rajmuat is tense and terrifying, but she's also far from friendless in the way Thayet was in LR. Even though she has lost her father by TQ, she still has Winna, her siblings, her aunt. She has people who love her and do their best to protect her. Yet all of these people also have their own agendas for Sarai, or expectations on how she will behave based on her rank as a noblewoman, and her actions do have consequences for them. They're also the people who we hear the story from, so her actions are presented from their perspective. It really don't think it actually matters if Sarai went to Carthak, or Tortall, or who she married, or wherever; I think it's totally irrelevant from a characterisation perspective. I'm not making a judgement on whether any of this is fair or not, but she has pretty badly embarrassed her family and put them in an awkward position politically by running away with a foreigner. They will also know that she would have known what position it would have put them in, and yet she did it anyway (and it's not like anyone is really loving it in Rajmuat right now), so at best they would have perceived it as selfish, disloyal; at worst as a deliberate "screw you lot". Either way, it's not endearing when you're the ones left with all of the consequences and have to go and make all kinds of mortifying apologies and generally do damage control for a mess you didn't make. Even Aly and the raka conspiracy are also on one level less concerned about Sarai as a human being than what she is to the prophecy and how they're going to somehow manage her onto the throne. They're pissed because she's screwed up all of their careful planning and they feel like all that work they put into her (not that she asked for any of it!) has gone down the tubes. If Sarai had run away with a Tortallan prince, or even any man at all, none of that would actually change. They'd all still be super furious for one reason or another. It would be really odd if they weren't! They do appear to have forgiven her by the end of TQ, once everything has been worked out.
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Sarai
Nov 3, 2018 15:26:18 GMT 10
Post by devilinthedetails on Nov 3, 2018 15:26:18 GMT 10
IdlenessAgain, you make some good points, and I think a lot of our different perspectives might just come down to how we read the point of views in Tammy's books. The point of views in Tammy's books tend to come across to me as if we are supposed to agree with the narrator, whereas to you the point of view might read more as if Tammy is aware of the narrator's biases and limits in perspective. If TQ read to me more like Tammy was aware of the narrator's biases and limited perspective, I believe I would probably think very similarly to you. So in this case it may just come down to differences in the overall tone or vibe we're getting from the narration and Tammy's writing style. To clarify my position a bit, I don't think that Thayet and Sarai are an apples to apples comparison, more probably an orange and a clementine comparison, where there are similarities. I do believe that Thayet's fleeing from Sarain is the closest Tortall comparable that we really have to Sarai fleeing from the Copper Isles. I would concede that Thayet was in greater danger when it came to her life but I also think that Thayet, raised from birth to be a princess, had arguably a greater responsibility to her people in Sarain than Sarai does to her people in the Copper Isles. I agree that Thayet felt abandoned by Sarain before she fled Sarain, but I also think that Sarai felt abandoned by the Copper Isles before she fled. From Sarai's perspective, she was fleeing the country that was going to force her to make a marriage to a tyrannical boy king. I really can't blame Sarai for not staying in the Copper Isles to be married against her will in the hope that she might one day fulfill some nebulous prophecy. In fact, I never really blame fantasy characters for not setting much in store by prophecies. To me, it's like in the real world I wouldn't expect someone to make major life decisions based on their horoscope or tarot card reading. In fact, I'd probably be more apt to negatively judge someone for making a major life choice based on their horoscope or tarot card reading. I'd probably also think that anyone looking for signs of hope and fulfillment in horoscope and tarot card readings is probably very desperate. I imagine fantasy characters who don't want to spend their lives maybe fulfilling a dubiously accurate prophecy might feel the same way--that belief in an uncertain prophecy is a sign of desperation. I do agree that Sarai has people who love her and try to protect her, but truly they have failed in that if she is about to be forced into a horrid marriage against her will, so, if they can't protect her from that fate, I think she is one hundred percent within her rights to flee from that. It's a shame that her family might face negative consequences for her escape, but that is on the oppressive ruling dynasty, not on her, in my opinion. You're right that we are getting told the story from the perspective that Sarai leaves behind, and that's fine, but I think the problem for me is that I feel like we are expected to agree uncritically with that perspective, and not really consider things from Sarai's point of view at all, which I believe is unfair to Sarai and to the story. With the taking refuge in Tortall versus Carthak thing, I think it just bugs me that Tortall is treated as almost like this paradise land where everyone finds safe haven (ruled by monarchs who are almost anachronistically progressive given the medieval milieu) and the one time someone takes refuge in a place that is ethnically diverse, that is the one time it is treated as a questionable or bad decision. The optics of that just rub me the wrong way. I also do think it could be relevant that Sarai chose to go to Carthak. To me, Carthak always came across as a place where there was relative racial harmony considering how ethnically diverse the place was, so I could see her decision to take refuge there being a desire to seek out a place where people of different races for the most part get along. I bet a place like that seems like a paradise compared to the Copper Isles with its endless racial strife.
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Sarai
Nov 12, 2018 15:48:12 GMT 10
Post by Idleness on Nov 12, 2018 15:48:12 GMT 10
Sure, we are coming at this from different positions. With the taking refuge in Tortall versus Carthak thing, I think it just bugs me that Tortall is treated as almost like this paradise land where everyone finds safe haven You mean the American Tortallan Dream? I wasn't necessarily the most critical reader when I was a young teen (I just wanted to read cool stories about kick-ass girls), but the parallel was so blatant that even back then I got it. And also as a young teen from a comfortable middle class background in New Zealand, I was so confused because why does everyone want to move to the USA? They think they're so great but they're not; they've got heaps of problems! Of course, then I grew up and got a more balanced perspective when I realised that I had a privileged existence, that problems can be relative, and if you're poor and starving, or being persecuted or oppressed, then any country where you have a chance at a better life is a paradise. And also that no place is perfect, we all have our problems, and what those problems are and how bad they are looks different for different people based on perspective - and to paraphrase Obama, everyone thinks they're exceptional. But I also choose to read it as the author's bias as an American but also her idealised notion of what the idea of the American Dream ought to be, not necessarily what it is. Still not my super favourite part of the Tortall universe though.
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Sarai
Nov 13, 2018 0:26:47 GMT 10
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Post by devilinthedetails on Nov 13, 2018 0:26:47 GMT 10
Idleness, I agree that there is a strong American Dream aspect to how Tortall is treated as a sort of paradise land, but I think that the American Dream is ultimately very rooted in a certain historical period and political system. The American Dream makes sense to have developed in a post-Enlightenment society, but it doesn't make a lot of sense just dropped into a quasi medieval world. The American Dream makes sense in conjunction with a democratic society but feels very anachronistic in a feudal world. Trying to shoehorn the American Dream into Tortall to me results in some of the most problematic political aspects of the Tortallan world for me: 1) That Tortall becomes a not very believable quasi-medieval world where universal education is pursued (with apparent success given the crazy high literacy rate presented in Spy Guide) despite the printing press not even having been invented yet; 2) That Thayet and Jon are politically are quite out of place with progressive beliefs more characteristic of the modern world than a quasi-medieval one (Jon's most believable king moments for me are when he actually does things a medieval monarch would like arrange marriages for his children, etc); 3) That other lands, usually where people who aren't white live, need a progressive white heroine to come in and save them from themselves. Even in the Trickster's Duology, Carthak is basically described as starting to be okay now that Kally is there to push some of her parents' more unrealistic reforms like universal education. It is just absurd that Carthak with its famous university that has been around it seems for centuries would need guidance from Tortall (which just established a university) when it comes to education. Carthak clearly has a successful education system. If any culture would imitate the other, it would be the Tortallans trying to copy Carthak. To me, it's both anachronistic (universal education with no printing press to make it feasible) and imperialistic (white progressive heroines need to show the backwards non-Trotallans how to take care of themselves). I don't have a problem with Daine or Thayet seeing Tortall as a sort of paradise relative to what they've been through, but I think the problems for me occur when Tammy becomes determined to make Tortall a medieval paradise. That's when I see the anachronisms and white man's burden implications really flourish in ways that diminish my enjoyment of the books. Basically, yes, I agree that this is the American Dream dumped into Tortall, but I think that has some unpleasant consequences in terms of political anachronisms and imperialistic implications that recur throughout the different series which is why I can't quite overlook that. It just all ties together for me. I do understand and respect that not everyone will see it that way, of course.
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