Ozorne

[Kypriotha]

What were people's thoughts on Ozorne in this book?

I thought the way he decried certain aspects of royal life, but still maintained certain expectations and haughtiness was interesting. He's clearly very obsessed with loyalty, but also people doing what he wants and supporting his views and plans.

I re-read Emperor Mage after finishing Tempests and I don't think he's quite at EM levels of arrogance yet, but I can start to see how he'll get there.

[devilinthedetails]

Ozorne is a character that changes quite a bit for me throughout the book. At the beginning of T&S, his big dream is basically to retreat to a country manor with Varice and Arram. By the end of the book, he is describing to Arram the conquering he would like to do if he were emperor. That's a major shift in motivation. The sad thing is Ozorne probably would have been better off living a quiet life in the countryside with friends than on the Carthaki throne which the closer he gets to it, the worse his paranoia and arrogance seem to get. His growing power and mental health struggles feed off each other in a particular toxic way.

To me, a major defining aspect of Ozorne seems to be his mental instability. Clearly he's built up a lot of blame and resentment around his father's death, and that's being channeled by his mother (who plainly suffers from mental health problems herself) into hatred of the Sirajit and a need for vengeance upon them rather than into any kind of healthy grief and acceptance. He also has people close to him like his mother and Chioke sort of encouraging all the wrong traits in him like his paranoia. I also think that we see Chioke trying to use his influence with Ozorne to drive a wedge between Ozorne and Arram. I also wonder if that potion Chioke gave Ozorne during his depressive state was actually a helpful one, especially since Chioke seems skeptical of the idea that Varice's potions could aid Ozorne's mother and he was pretty irrationally furious when Arram had fairly legitimate questions about what he was giving a prince. I guess that I think Ozorne inherited mental issues from his mother that were exacerbated by childhood traumas (death of his father and later deaths of royal heirs) and by adult influences like his mother and Chioke who promoted all the wrong emotions like paranoia, hatred, and vengeance in him. A lot of Ozorne's more troubling traits to me seem to be products of a mental illness that is being treated in about the worst possible way. I don't know if in the Tortallan universe there would be an adequate way to treat Ozorne's mental issues but even by the standards of their world, I don't think Ozorne's mental problems were handled in the best way. And that will have big consequences for Ozorne and all of Carthak.

The way Ozorne chafed under certain aspects of royal life reminded me of other princes Tammy has written such as Jon (particularly during the second and third Alanna book), Kaddar during Emperor Mage, and even Roald during that scene in Lady Knight where he is bitter about not being able too do enough during the Scanran war. I do think that by the end of the book some of Ozorne's complaints are as Arram seems to suspect sort of put on, and Ozorne makes a lot of twisted "jokes" (sometimes I think they are threats but Arram misses that or doesn't want to see that because Ozorne is his friend) that we don't see from Jon, Kaddar, or Roald. So Tammy is definitely doing something different with Ozorne's character, but I did see echoes of other princes who have appeared in her works. Ozorne goes down a darker road than Jon, Kaddar, or Roald, but it is still an interesting connection I noticed as I was reading.

I agree that Ozorne isn't at Emperor Mage levels of arrogance yet, but like you I can certainly see how he will get there. We will almost surely see more of Ozorne's paranoia, vengeance, and arrogance in the next book. Ozorne is only going to become more terrifying as the series progresses.

[mageprincess]

Varice and Arram’s loyalty is completely blind, they can’t see the serious red flags in Ozorne’s behaviour that suggest he has some huge mental health issues at worst, and appalling anger management issues at best.

I’ve not actually finished the book yet, I’ve just got past the part with the pedler in the market, but that scene amongst many just highlights that Ozorne is rapidly becoming the dangerous person fromTIQ.

And I completely agree that Chioke has alterior motives - it kind of unsettles me that Chioke’s Gift is orange... we all know who else’s Gift was orange and I’m wondering if it’s a deliberate comparison.

[Idleness]

mageprincess , Chioke is definitely bad news! And yeah, also definitely cultivating Ozorne for his own purposes, and working to eliminate threats to his own consolidation of power and influence.

I have to disagree with Varice and Arram being completely blind to Ozorne's less endearing traits. Arram is certainly already feeling an uneasiness about the vehemence of Ozorne's hatred of anyone Sirajit and discomfort at his friend's comfort with the status quo on the gladiators. But they're still friends--and I think this is realistic, because you want to think the well of your friends even when they display some really unappealing traits. No one is perfect, after all, and it's really easy to find explanations for, and justify, some kinds of bad behaviour in people we like and want to continue to like. Everyone does it. This is the sort of grey complexity that I think T&S got right, and I'll be pleased if this continues in the next installment, particularly as the conflict heats up and Arram and Ozorne fall out with each other, but Varice remains.

However, I was kind of... conflicted about Ozorne's implied mental health issues. You know, one can be insecure and paranoid, and/or have other personality traits that can lead down a really dark path without actually being mentally ill. Not every villain needs a pathology. You can also have these traits and be perfectly charming and likable to friends and teachers. Also, having mental illness doesn't mean you're automatically ripe to become villain material!

I'll be really disappointed if this descends into, "oh the poor wee button, with all these issues of being the leftover prince and the hereditary insanity, it was inevitable he'd end up a depraved despot--it's really not his fault" and equally, "well, Arram is so inherently good, he would never have been friends with someone who was naturally bad to start with."

I don't mean to say that Ozorne should be a bad person because he chooses to be, or was predestined to be. It's just that I'll be disappointed if mental illness is used as a really lazy way to explain how he got from being a good kind of kid that Arram would be friends with, to where he ends up in TIQ.

[devilinthedetails]

Mar 11, 2018 15:51:04 GMT 10 Idleness said:

mageprincess , Chioke is definitely bad news! And yeah, also definitely cultivating Ozorne for his own purposes, and working to eliminate threats to his own consolidation of power and influence.

I have to disagree with Varice and Arram being completely blind to Ozorne's less endearing traits. Arram is certainly already feeling an uneasiness about the vehemence of Ozorne's hatred of anyone Sirajit and discomfort at his friend's comfort with the status quo on the gladiators. But they're still friends--and I think this is realistic, because you want to think the well of your friends even when they display some really unappealing traits. No one is perfect, after all, and it's really easy to find explanations for, and justify, some kinds of bad behaviour in people we like and want to continue to like. Everyone does it. This is the sort of grey complexity that I think T&S got right, and I'll be pleased if this continues in the next installment, particularly as the conflict heats up and Arram and Ozorne fall out with each other, but Varice remains.

However, I was kind of... conflicted about Ozorne's implied mental health issues. You know, one can be insecure and paranoid, and/or have other personality traits that can lead down a really dark path without actually being mentally ill. Not every villain needs a pathology. You can also have these traits and be perfectly charming and likable to friends and teachers. Also, having mental illness doesn't mean you're automatically ripe to become villain material!

I'll be really disappointed if this descends into, "oh the poor wee button, with all these issues of being the leftover prince and the hereditary insanity, it was inevitable he'd end up a depraved despot--it's really not his fault" and equally, "well, Arram is so inherently good, he would never have been friends with someone who was naturally bad to start with."

I don't mean to say that Ozorne should be a bad person because he chooses to be, or was predestined to be. It's just that I'll be disappointed if mental illness is used as a really lazy way to explain how he got from being a good kind of kid that Arram would be friends with, to where he ends up in TIQ.

I think you bring up some important points, Idleness. I agree that Varice and Arram don't strike me as being completely blind to Ozorne's flaws. I definitely picked up on Arram's uneasiness with Ozoren's hatred of anyone he even imagines to be Sirajit, for instance, and I see some evidence that Varice is sort of walking on eggshells around Ozorne sometimes. One incident that stuck out in my mind was when Ozorne flipped out at Arram for wanting to buy Sirajit pastries and Varice sort of tows the line between siding with Arram and making excuses for Ozorne's behavior.

From personal experience with an alcoholic, I would have to say how Arram and Varice react to Ozorne's behavior is pretty realistic to me. I think everyone wants to believe that they would never make excuses for the unacceptable behavior of a family member or friend, but the reality often is that people do, and there can be a lot of reasons why they do. Sometimes love is blind, sometimes love makes excuses for the fact that nobody is perfect, and sometimes we just want to pretend that a situation is normal or manageable even when it isn't. If you have to deal with certain types of "insanity," you may develop some symptoms of insanity yourself. Now there may come a sort of "breaking point" for you where you do stick up for yourselves and others. So that aspect of T&S, Varice and Arram dealing with Ozorne's behavior, felt very true to life for me and just really resonated with me.

I do think that mental health issues and villains can be really difficult to interpret sometimes, though. You are right that not every villain needs a pathology. I sometimes see the pathology as a shorthand for creating sympathy or complexity for the character but I don't know if mental health issues are always as complex a motive as other ones are. It also does kind of make me uncomfortable that most of the time we see people with mental health issues characterized as villains when in real life mental health issues do not equate with being evil. Nor are mental health issues in my opinion an excuse for being evil. I don't think Ozorne abdicates moral responsibility for his behavior because of his mental health issues (even though they seem to be exacerbated by important influences in his life like his mother and Chioke).

I suppose we will see where Tammy takes his journey in the next book.

[Idleness]

Agree, devilinthedetails . We don't get to see into Varice's thoughts like we do for Arram, but she is definitely tip-toeing around Ozorne's triggers. As far as Arram's thoughts at that point, though, Arram only knows that Ozorne's disproportionate reaction to something so innocuous as a Sirajit pastry makes him uncomfortable. And that discomfort appears again at other times in the narrative, but he has not got enough life experience yet at this stage in the story to frame that reaction in a bigger picture, or realise wider implications, or even do anything with the knowledge that he really doesn't like it when Ozorne loses it over anything Sirajit.

I did wonder if Ozorne's implied mental illness is there to make him more sympathetic. It's definitely implied that Chioke is aware of this as a route to working on Ozorne for his own purposes. I don't know that it's completely necessary, since there are already so many things stacked against the odds of Ozorne turning out healthy and well adjusted, for example: loss of his father and the unresolved grief associated with that; fixation on revenge against anyone Sirajit; the deep insecurity expressed in an utterly inflexible expectation of loyalty; the mother whose own unresolved grief is also expressed in a really unhealthy way; the cut-throat nature of growing up in the Imperial family; and the relative social isolation from all other peers the same age; and then finally the replacement father figure (Chioke) who is not above exploiting all of that. I suppose you could also argue, with all that, only an incredibly resilient person wouldn't have issues! But yeah, we will have to see where the story takes the mental illness angle.

I also got the sense that the other teachers are aware of Ozorne as a kid who is bright and gifted, but has the potential to go off the rails and they are trying their best to keep him on the tracks by occupying him with positive things.

[devilinthedetails]

Mar 12, 2018 16:20:22 GMT 10 Idleness said:

Agree, devilinthedetails . We don't get to see into Varice's thoughts like we do for Arram, but she is definitely tip-toeing around Ozorne's triggers. As far as Arram's thoughts at that point, though, Arram only knows that Ozorne's disproportionate reaction to something so innocuous as a Sirajit pastry makes him uncomfortable. And that discomfort appears again at other times in the narrative, but he has not got enough life experience yet at this stage in the story to frame that reaction in a bigger picture, or realise wider implications, or even do anything with the knowledge that he really doesn't like it when Ozorne loses it over anything Sirajit.

I did wonder if Ozorne's implied mental illness is there to make him more sympathetic. It's definitely implied that Chioke is aware of this as a route to working on Ozorne for his own purposes. I don't know that it's completely necessary, since there are already so many things stacked against the odds of Ozorne turning out healthy and well adjusted, for example: loss of his father and the unresolved grief associated with that; fixation on revenge against anyone Sirajit; the deep insecurity expressed in an utterly inflexible expectation of loyalty; the mother whose own unresolved grief is also expressed in a really unhealthy way; the cut-throat nature of growing up in the Imperial family; and the relative social isolation from all other peers the same age; and then finally the replacement father figure (Chioke) who is not above exploiting all of that. I suppose you could also argue, with all that, only an incredibly resilient person wouldn't have issues! But yeah, we will have to see where the story takes the mental illness angle.

I also got the sense that the other teachers are aware of Ozorne as a kid who is bright and gifted, but has the potential to go off the rails and they are trying their best to keep him on the tracks by occupying him with positive things.

Yeah, we don't get to glimpse Varice's thoughts in the same way that we do Arram's, so we just have to look at what she says and does to try to figure out what she might be thinking and feeling. I remember at one point she says something to Arram along the lines of it's Ozorne's friends job to be understanding of why he resents the Sirajit (or something similar). I think that line was an early indicator to me that Varice was trying to pretend that something that was disturbing was normal. It's a sort of coping mechanism a lot of people might display in a similar situation. You could say it is a maladaptive reaction but when you are buckled into a crazy ride sometimes you just try to keep all your limbs in the vehicle and hope for no crash.

I agree that Arram doesn't have the life experience to realize the wider implications of Ozorne's behavior or how to act upon the discomfort that he feels, and I thought Tammy did a good job of portraying that aspect of Arram. Arram is a teenager. It is extremely credible that he would not have the life experience to grasp the implications of Ozorne's behavior or know what to do about it even if he did. Even many adults might not know what to do in Arram's situation.

I also agree that there are a lot of factors stacked against Ozorne turning out well-adjusted. With his inability to come to terms with his father's death (instead of acceptance, he is feeling anger and hatred to an entire race of people, yikes), the fixation with absolute loyalty, a mother who grieves unhealthily and encourages all the wrong traits in her son, the cutthroat Carthaki royal family politics, and Chioke's manipulation, there is probably a lot that a contemporary psychologist would want to work through with a young Ozorne beyond a mere diagnosis or pathology. Things like a healthy grieving process might bring someone to a psychologist today without there really being an underlying diagnosis per say. From a psychological perspective, there is a lot to consider beyond just a straight-up mental illness.

I think you're right that other teachers are aware of Ozorne as a bright, gifted kid that could go off the rails. They seem to take an interest in Ozorne more than just because he is the prince and be concerned with how he is feeling/what his moods are. If I recall correctly, more than one teacher asks Arram about that kind of thing.

[mageprincess]

I’ve read a little further now and I rescind my “blind” comment at least as far as Arram is concerned. He is super uncomfortable when Ozorne starts talking about conquering Southern Tortall or the Copper Isles.

I think Varice is more inclined to brush off the warning signs though, with a “Oh, that’s just Ozorne for you” kind of attitude.

[Rachy]

I was kind of ambivalent about Ozorne. I’m glad to see that there are clear seeds of the man he’ll become, so the change won’t be out of the blue. He clearly hates the Sirajits - interestingly, Kaddar’s father also dies in a Siraj rebellion later on - so I actually expected worse for the roommate. Chioke ends up being Ozorne’s chief mage, so I am a little concerned that he may be the scapegoat presented for Ozorne going bad? Sort of in a Roger to Thom like way when it’s more of a Roger to Alex way. Something is up with his mum, so I expect to see something else there - maybe she dies suspiciously? I think we see his ambitions grow as the amount of princes decrease, and he definitely seems to take a step into bad territory once they stop sharing a room. The dark moods weren’t a good sign, and I almost expected Preet to not like him.

I think the biggest sign that Arram didn’t know Ozorne was the let’s think about getting rid of slavery jumping to so I want to conquer Southern Tortall convo when I wouldn’t call them related.

[aki]

Ozorne is a character I'm really intrigued by in the book, and don't fully understand. He's arrogant and proud, but I can't really blame him for those flaws. At the same time he does care for his friends and animals, specifically birds. He even helps out at the hospitals during the plague alongside Varice, which honestly surprised me. I'm not sure which one of them thought to try and help or why or if one of them needed convincing, but I really expected Ozorne to just not care and that didn't seem to be the case. Ozorne is also more careful around bullies than Arram, handling them in a more intelligent manner, at least in the beginning. When Arram tells Ozorne in one part of that book that they have a sirajit roommate he reacts <i>much</i> better than I thought he would. It's clear his words about settling differences are a show, but he doesn't really say anything outright mean or curse anyone either.

I just found myself constantly surprised by him in good and bad ways and it made it so difficult for me to get a sense for him as an individual. I definitely plan on marking particular scenes during my reread to bring up for discussion on his character.