April Bookclub: Alanna: the First Adventure

[Katty]

Tortall Bookclub: Month One

About bookclub: Bookclub is a chance for members to reread the books at the same time as other members, and then discuss them. Please keep all general discussions in this thread, however feel free to make new threads on any issues that warrant their own thread.

Our book for April is: Alanna: the First Adventure

Blurb: Denying her magical roots and disguised as a boy, Alanna strives to achieve her ultimate ambition. To become a knight. Her determination wins her powerful friends at the palace. But court life holds unexpected dangers. Something about the powerul magician, Duke Roger of Conte, terrified Alanna, Soon she will face a challenge to test all her skills...

So... read away

[Katty]

Okay so - who is rereading AtfA? I started last night.

[Kaya]

I finished it on the bus, in two hours?

[pineappleyness]

I'm going to start in the next few days.

[naxensfancy]

I'm in. I'll probably start tonight or tomorrow.

My fondest feelings are for AtfA-- it was the first of the books I read, it has the most about of Naxenness, and there's something about school stories that I really, really enjoy.

[ubiquitous]

I'm reading it Thursday night, after corporate is done!

[boosette]

Damn - everyone reads so fast!

I started a couple of days ago, and I've been taking it a chapter at a time as bedtime reading.

[Blade]

Finished it Friday... I got a head start though, I was determined to reread SotL once I joined here.

[anilaurel]

I'll read it sometime. I just read really fast and I have all of the Emalan series in my back pack right now. (2 hours a book)

[Serenity]

I read it two weeks ago (literally just two days before Ana submitted her book club suggestion), but it's such a short thing that I can easily get through it again tonight. Count me in.

[Rojo]

If I can finish all of my vast loads of homework while I am on break, then I will.

[Lindsay]

I'm rereading SotL in reverse order right now, so I'll be getting to A:tFA sometime in the next week or so.

[Mirage]

Just finished it a couple of weeks ago, (on the third book now), but it shouldn't cause too much pain to finish the series and start again

[boosette]

Also, is it just me or is this book much funnier than it was when I was fifteen?

[Mirage]

I think your funny is my cynical.. But yeah, it does feel different

[boosette]

That's very interesting - I think I've reached a point where I can fully embrace the nostalgia, which makes me feel oooold. (Although I'm not quite to the point where I'll have been reading Tammy half my life yet.)

[Mina]

Argh I finally have to come through with the plan to purchase the English copies of the SOTL (and actually the Daine books)
*is off to amazon to order them

[Mirage]

Maybe it's just having enough material to draw connections to, unlike the first time I read it.

My most recent thoughts upon the scene where Alan first meets the others was something along the lines of "...wait, Jon is still just a page, why is he being accepted as the disciplinarian of all the (many older) boys? Prince or no prince, Roald (jr.) never had that kind of power in the Kel books. Sheesh, no wonder he turned out to be such a prick." Nice right? Especially considering my first reaction years and years (wow, you're right about the nolstagia) ago was most likely "Oh cool, a prince."

[Anaroriel]

I've been reading Tammy for half of my life. What does that make me? Ancient...

Planning to start it soon when I canget ahold of it. The closest bookstore has no Tammy to speak of (and an excess of Stephenie Meyer. Hasn't everyone who wants to read it done so already? I don't understand why they stock so much).

[Mina]

ana I still haven't read twilight and I don't know if I ever will
I just spent 42€ (euro) on amazon odering the SOTL and Immortal series in English
(I do have it in German but that doesn't work out for me anymore. )

Well, but we saw Tortall change, Mirage - the lower emphasis of rank came with the changes Thayet and Jon made. Tortall under Roald's reign was still pretty much relying on rank and protocol. Just imagine a young Francis in the Tortall of Roalds time as a page, he would be as unsure and weirded out as Daine was at first about the lack of decorum and barrier between nobles and lower ranks.

[anilaurel]

That is a very good point. Roald (jr) grew up in a time here some of his parents best friends are commoners (George, Daine, Numair, Eleni ect.) So he may be less accepting of the fact that rank is really important.

While Jon is a total jerk (smite him)

[Anaroriel]

Poor Jon. We never give him enough credit. I think Roald II could have stepped into that role if he wanted to, I think he just avoided it. Maybe a personality thing? Total jerk or no, I don't think either Roald's could have put Tortall back together like Jon did. Confidence and presence is key, even if it does make you a jerk.

[Mirage]

Apr 8, 2009 8:43:28 GMT 10 Anaroriel said:

I think Roald II could have stepped into that role if he wanted to, I think he just avoided it.

I don't think so though. Because the atmosphere of the training in the SoTL series was so different than PotS. Can you really imagine Wyldon letting a page, royal or no, run his own little empire under his eye? Or even that the other boys and their families would stand for it.

That's something that's always irked me, how knight training is so different in the two generations and yet we never got a good explanation as to why it became what it did. (Yes, Thayet-Jon-reforms, but it's huge, and attitudes are not as easy to change as laws.)

As for Jon... ^^" didn't mean to start a bash-fest. I really do adore him as a character, and totally agree that he's exactly what Tortall needed - but doesn't discount the many times I want to smack him for being as insufferable as royalty is.

[Anaroriel]

I don't know. I think the possibility of it changing that quickly isn't that extreme. After all, they are children (easily influenced) and a new group of them comes through every few years. I mean, my parents say all the time how different my schooling was from theirs so I can imagine it being the same in Tortall.

Can you really imagine Wyldon letting a page, royal or no, run his own little empire under his eye?

Well, yes. We saw the alliances and the power struggles that Joren and Kel each had in their little "camps". If Roald had stepped up I can imagine it being quite the same.

[Mirage]

I don't think it's quite the same thing. The issues between Team Joren and Team Kel were basically pages fighting (if you disregard Kel's moral reasoning) - which, as we are led to understand, is an accepted part of palace life.

But do you remember that scene in A:tFA, when Alanna & Ralon get into their first fight and Jon breaks it up? He doesn't just act as a peacekeeper, he actually commanded Ralon to see him in his rooms later on (not to mentioning banishing him from his presence), and it's not a request but a full out demand. That's the difference I think, it's not just groups of warring pages there. It's Jon having a much higher status than everyone else; looking over and presiding disagreements, throwing out orders, and meting out punishment - &maybe it's just me, but I can feel like what he does is probably officially supported and encouraged. I can't see that being allowed in Kel's world.

[Mina]

Yes, but the Ralon Alan fight got very nmuch out of control and if it had been any page but Alan, they would have asked their friends for help at that point anyway.
I think it is more that Jon has the status to force something that none of the others could force but that would have been forced by the adults if Alan hadn't gone through such length to hide what happened (no other page could have forced Stephan to keep silent about what happened in the stables ) and Ralon would have been caught long before.
If it was just about status I think Kon would have started a lot earlier.

I think if Roald would have tried he could have done the same, but he was less involved in things. And the adults did have a much closer eye on the pages - partially because of what became of Ralon I'd say.
We cannot forget that Jon came into a position to change things and the fact what happened to Ralon might have made him more wary of giving any of the pages and squires any kind of power over each other.
I mean the amount of stuff Ralon got away with had a lot to do with the way he turned out, and the potential threat he evolved into.

Can you see Jon keeping to rules that turned out a Ralon, that he and the others questioned especially in the Alan- Ralon situation.
The world, the society changed, power changed and Wyldon is a lot more involved in the training the Gareth of Naxen who also held other positions in court ever was. A lot of the self policeing done in Alan's time doesn't need to be done with a leader that is more involved.

Yes, Jon was still spoilt, but even he let things go on for quite a while till he changed from the usual page-squire power games and just bullying the bully to using his status
And we easily forget two facts about Jon a)coddled only child and b)child of a generation that was a lot more aware and following rules of status than the generation of children whose parents might have been pages or squires at the same time as Jon, Alan, Gary, Raoul and co.
A lot of the parents were in one way or another involved in the changes in Tortal and most are survivors or witnesses of Rogers last attempt on the crown at Jon's cermonial crown moment, as most of the nobles were visiting for that event.
We easily forget, that not only Alanna and Thayet are part of the changes, but that the attempted regicide and the consequences are a real big factor in changing a country.
Who were the most important help to the King? A King of Thieves, a shang warrior, a female knight, a knight who had been taken as a drunkard and a bazhir guard.
How can old sayings old perceptions hold true after something like that and several nobles and royal relatives being involved on the wrong side of the law.

We say it happened too fast, but look at history, when the unthinkable happens society does change very fast.
Think of the short time of the Puritans or the few years of the french revolution before the republic went back to being lead by one person. - things change fast, sometimes they change back even faster and a very conservative king might undo a lot ofchanges in Tortal in the future, who knows.

[Lisa]

Yes, but the Ralon Alan fight got very nmuch out of control and if it had been any page but Alan, they would have asked their friends for help at that point anyway.

Yes and no. In the VERY FIRST SCENE with Ralon and Jon, we see that Jon is ridiculously overbearing and pulls rank over Ralon. It's indicated that there's a history between them - and while we can guess that it's because Ralon's a bully and a Jon has the moral highground, ultimately there's no proof.

I think changes between Duke Gareth's training and Lord Wyldon's could be partly due to Jon's experiences and what he wanted to see differently (just like I imagine Roald II was raised differently because Jon saw the mistakes he himself made).

I think comparing Jon & his cronies vs. Ralon to Kel & Co vs. Joren & his cronies is misleading. First of all, Kel does a lot to EARN her companions. Jon never had to earn Alanna's friendship - she was flattered to have it bestowed upon her. That's more due to rank than anything else. Kel's group is (pretty much) a companion of equals. As is Joren's. Their fight is one of equals, too. It took the ENTIRE class of pages to stop Joren's group at Midwinter, and it took all of Kel's friends patrolling to ensure that Joren stopped bullying.

Ralon was defeated by a public display of strength against him. He picked on one person repeatedly (that we know of), and had all of Jon's group against him from before day one. He was forbidden to speak in the presence of the prince before we even knew who Jon's crowd was.

Do I think Ralon is better than Joren? Certainly not. But he's definitely a victim while also a petpetrator. And I think the way Jon dealt with him was exactly what led him to wanting his revenge. Remember that Ralon didn't come back to beat the snot out of Alanna - it was just a potential perk in a conspiracy to overthrow Jon.

[boosette]

Apr 10, 2009 22:02:23 GMT 10 Lisa said:

But he's definitely a victim while also a perpetrator.

The entire Ralon sequence rubbed me the wrong way, actually (it's the only part of A:tFA I actively have issues with), and this is in large part why.

We see Ralon being a jerk, certainly, and engaging in behavior that either is or will become the hazing of Kel's page years, and it's very visibly and obviously condemned (since Alanna Our Narrator is on the receiving end of it).

And yet, Ralon's actions toward Alanna pale in comparison to Jon & the squires' actions toward Ralon. Ralon mocks Alanna, calls her names and goads her into fighting and while we're told that he spends three months beating her up, we don't see it - by contrast we're treated to an almost pornographically violent description of Raoul nearly drowning Ralon. That doesn't even touch on Jon's organized shunning. He and his posse are pretty obviously not just doing it out of a desire to protect Alanna, but out of some personal vendetta we're not privy to as well.

The cherry on top is Duke Gareth's lecture, filled with veiled compliment, about bullies and chivalry and Doing The Right Thing which, while I'm sure we're supposed to be cheering right along with, left me with a sour taste in my mouth. That self-same bullying Duke G all but praises Alanna for taking action against was meted out against Ralon by Jon and the others - and yet we don't see Jon or the others being berated or otherwise punished for their actions. (And since the books are in third person omniscient, that's something that could and should have made it to the page, I think.)

So ultimately, I agree with Lisafer that the treatment Ralon received as a page/squire is directly responsible for his desire for revenge and subsequent actions in LR. It's the kind of thing I love in a narrative - stupid mistakes early on coming back to bite the protagonists later - but the hypocrisy in the delivery ("It's okay to be a bully if the bully-ees are bad people!") turns my stomach.

I ♥ the rest of A:tFA, though.

[Lisa]

The cherry on top is Duke Gareth's lecture, filled with veiled compliment, about bullies and chivalry and Doing The Right Thing which, while I'm sure we're supposed to be cheering right along with, left me with a sour taste in my mouth.

I find it interesting that Duke Gareth is universally loved, while Wyldon (who opposes the fighting altogether, while ignoring the fact that it's of a bullying nature) is often strongly disliked either for ignoring the bullying or for being sexist.

(the billionth reason I love this little corner of fandom - no Wyldon-hate!!)

[ubiquitous]

I think that some of that has to do with the familial connections too. After all, Duke Gareth is Jon's uncle, and Gary's father. Not to mention he's the Queen's brother. That also has hand in Duke Gareth's universal love.

Wyldon on the other hand, has little or no connection to any of the pages, except as a training master, so here we see the other side too, the dissent, the disrespect, etc.

Apr 11, 2009 2:56:27 GMT 10 @boosette said:

The cherry on top is Duke Gareth's lecture, filled with veiled compliment, about bullies and chivalry and Doing The Right Thing which, while I'm sure we're supposed to be cheering right along with, left me with a sour taste in my mouth. That self-same bullying Duke G all but praises Alanna for taking action against was meted out against Ralon by Jon and the others - and yet we don't see Jon or the others being berated or otherwise punished for their actions. (And since the books are in third person omniscient, that's something that could and should have made it to the page, I think.)

I think the reason is that, much like Raoul says in Squire, he wasn't quite right to be a knight, and Duke Gareth most likely figured that letting things take their course between the pages would be the simplest way of convincing him. I'd say about how I doubt that Wyldon wouldn't have taken such a course to be taken with Joren, had his own eyes been open, but in reality, his not stepping in had the same effect. The only difference was that Joren was stronger in his will and his fighting than Ralon.

I'd say more, but I fear I will deviate from the discussion at hand.