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Post by Katty on Mar 26, 2009 20:15:43 GMT 10
Okay seriously, what's will all the Aly hate going on? She's not that bad (or at least, not anywhere near annoying as someone like say, Daine  ). I mean yes, she grated on my nerves a little during TQ, and she definitely has her flaws as far as a character goes, but overall I enjoyed her as a character. I think she suited the DotL books well! So whats the deal? |
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 27, 2009 4:26:08 GMT 10
Hey, that's not fair to assume. /I/ did not hate Aly. I thought she was amusing, if not underdeveloped a little. |
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Post by boosette on Mar 27, 2009 5:46:06 GMT 10
Okay seriously, what's will all the Aly hate going on? She's not that bad (or at least, not anywhere near annoying as someone like say, Daine ). Oh piffle, Daine's awesome Aly's story needed to be a trilogy; whereas all the other heroines in Tortall earned their skills (and we saw them doing it) Aly appears on the scene with a an attitude problem and the abilities of a spy three times her age. The things that shaped her character - growing up with Alanna as a mother, learning from George, the ill-fated meeting at thirteen where she nearly got killed ... all happens off-page. Things like the life-in-peril meeting aren't even alluded to in her text, and it grates. Within the context of her story, the race issues jump out at me and give me a bad taste in my mouth (Aly comes in, is annointed by a [white?] god and practically takes over the conspiracy the Raka have been managing for centuries.) Paraphrasing, "where we see one way, you see five" coming from a brown adult to a white teenager in a book by a white author ... urgh. That's not even touching upon the incident with Ochobu's village, with Aly wearing what amounts to blackface and thinking that this is a good idea - it read to me as racially insensitive and, on Aly's part, really very dumb. She's not a realistic spy for all the outright stupid things she pulls - like the Raka Rebellion's symbol (an open shackle? REALLY? like no one is going to guess what THAT implies.) to her bombing of the slave docks (an act of terrorism). Likewise her liar's palace that came out of nowhere, and her opponents are hardly frightening (we're supposed to believe Topabaw was ever competent enough to become the equivalent of the Copper Isles CIA?). Spys deal with sketchy people - with bad people, with people who should strike fear into the hearts of all they encounter - and Aly gets ... Topabaw. And the inbred Kyprish royalty. And her biggest moral dilemma (what to do about Dunevon and Elsren) is taken care of by a literal deus ex machina so that Aly's hands can stay clean. Spys don't get to have their hands stay clean. It's part and parcel with the job that they're going to be doing a number of morally ambiguous or otherwise craptacular things, and Aly ... doesn't. Except for the part where she commits an act of terrorism out of the desire for revenge. TC/TQ are a prime example of why an author really ought to spend a significant amount of time with their narrator before they sign up to write 800 pages of them. |
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Rojo
Queen's Rider
There once was a girl who was told she could, and so she did.
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Post by Rojo on Mar 27, 2009 5:46:35 GMT 10
Personally, I found her to leaning toward a Mary Sue with her character lacking in areas (someone who wants to be a spy but thinks their abilities (spotting lies, posionings, tamper-with seals, etc.) are not the best? really?), however, the series over-all was alright, which put her in good light in my opinion, even if I did not like Nawat.
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Post by boosette on Mar 27, 2009 5:53:58 GMT 10
I would have liked Nawat a lot better if he had been present for more than twenty pages in TQ.
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Post by Lisa on Mar 27, 2009 7:09:16 GMT 10
I think Candice touched on a LOT of the issues that made me like Aly less and less as I went. I think Aly in TC was a lot more tolerable - race issues aside (I do believe Kyprioth appears as copper-skinned, though I get the impression that the deities can take any form).
I think Aly would have been more pleasant with more struggle. TC was fun because people figured our when she was up to something. (and this was before Dove was ridiculously "over-powered" as a character.) I think it would have been easier to empathize with her character if she'd had more hardship and less rolicking adventure. Her attitude made me unable to care that she was taken into slavery - the chit was stupid and willful, and her carelessness alone led to it. (er, not to say that anyone who's caught by slavers DESERVES a life of slavery - but since she was a character in a book I was pretty darn sure she'd end up on top.)
In TQ what began as minor annoyances turned into MAJOR issues with her character. I was hoping beyond hope that Aly would not be "the Cunning one" because it's not HER revolution. And the fact that she did acts of terrorism without much guilt, but then was relieved of making the ultimate decision for the revolution (regarding Dunevon & Elsren, as Candice said above) made her character lack a lot of depth. I think we needed to explore the guilt and loss of conscientiousness one develops while doing destructive operative work. We never got to see a young (fairly innocent) girl turn into a hardened spy. It's like she woke up one day and magically had all of her skills and mental preparation in place.
I agree that she would have been better if we'd had more time. Candice suggested a trilogy, but I think a quartet would have suited her story a bit better. It would have also given more time for Dove and Sarai to be properly addressed.
But that's a rant for another time... ^_^;;
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Post by boosette on Mar 27, 2009 7:21:14 GMT 10
I think I agree that she would have been better if we'd had more time. Candice suggested a trilogy, but I think a quartet would have suited her story a bit better. It would have also given more time for Dove and Sarai to be properly addressed. But that's a rant for another time... ^_^;; Book 1: Aly's early training, overlaps Squire, ends after the knife-fight Book 2: Aly's increasing frustration over not being permitted a spy's career, middle-of-the-book climax at her capture by the slavers and her life as a slave in the Copper Isles, ends on the Balitangs' exile. Book 3: TC. Book 4: TQ. Like that? I would have liked that a great deal. |
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Post by Lisa on Mar 27, 2009 7:27:34 GMT 10
I think I would have
1. Early training, overlapping Squire, ending with her capture with slavers
2. TC
3. Book where characters gradually change
4. TQ
#3 could explain why Aly suddenly turned into a douchebag* regarding Sarai.
*no offense to females or their hygeine intended, the word just works sometimes.
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Post by boosette on Mar 27, 2009 7:38:32 GMT 10
Oh! Book 3 as the winter at Lombyn!
Yeah, Aly's treatment of and contempt toward Sarai (as well as keeping her in the dark over the whole thing - Sarai would have jumped at the chance to be involved with the revolution if anyone had bothered to tell her) doesn't go very far to endear Aly to me.
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Post by purdypirate on Mar 27, 2009 9:15:53 GMT 10
ALy just rubs me the wrong way for numerous reasons. I'm more interested as to why some people don't like Daine. (looks pointedly at Katty lol  |
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 27, 2009 14:21:15 GMT 10
Like I said earlier, I don't hate her I just think she wasn't fully developed. I think it would have been much better with a quartlet, definitely.
Like, it's ok to have someone be a calculating bitch, there was just no explanation of why she would be one. There were very few reasons to care about and sympathize with Miss Aly. She was amusing, definitely, but you need a character to be more than just amusing. They need to be three dimensional.
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Serenity
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The status is not quo.
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Post by Serenity on Mar 27, 2009 15:53:40 GMT 10
Candice really hit a lot of my growing resistance to Aly on the head. Her likability and depth suffered severely due to the circumstances she was put in, coupled with the lack of history we witnessed first hand. It's harder to care for a girl who just is, by appearances, brilliantly gifted, versus a girl whose struggles we follow from day one. I don't hate her, but I find her the least pleasant out of every lead Tammy has written.
On a more superficial level, I found her attitude grating. There's a very smug, self-satisfied tone to all she does, which would be fine if it were treated as such, but too often, I felt like it was an attempt to make her seem cleverer than she was. Her wit left me cold, and her supposed precociousness veered into pretentiousness, again being passed as something more endearing. Normally, I would love all of this, because I am a big fan of characters with flaws, but in this case, I was left with nothing to keep me invested. I can understand why people like her, but there was a lack of balance in her that I need in order to truly care about a character.
Of course, this is all just my interpretation, and much of it is colored by the technical failings brought up by Candice and Lisa.
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Fate
Squire
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Post by Fate on Mar 27, 2009 17:00:55 GMT 10
Candice, Lisa... will you marry me? Please?
I would not say that I hate Aly, I would not even say that I dislike her. I would say that she is my least favorite of all TP's heriones because of what Candice dictated above.
I wholeheartedly agree that I would have liked more devolpement. Aly learning and gaining her skills would have been so much more fun. Plus it would have offered us more time in Tortall, a look at the Cooper household and Aly's relationship with her family. Candice and Lisa I really wish I could read your versions of the DotL...
... it also really annoyed me that Aly got pregnant at the end of TQ. Just... blah, not even going to touch that one.
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Post by Rosie on Mar 27, 2009 21:14:11 GMT 10
... it also really annoyed me that Aly got pregnant at the end of TQ. Just... blah, not even going to touch that one. At least we got the best baby names ever out of it!! |
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Post by Katty on Mar 27, 2009 22:11:22 GMT 10
No way, the best baby names will ALWAYS be Albus Severus and Scorpius. AS/S foreverrrrrrr
Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the rapid change fromHappy!Nawat to Broody!Nawat and then to Horny!Man!Nawat. Nawat could have definitely been done better.
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Post by boosette on Mar 28, 2009 2:42:30 GMT 10
Manly!Mannish!Man!of Mannitude!from Manitoba!Nawat felt like overcompensation for establishing a canon ship that is, essentially, human/animal.
And that is something that squicks me out and has from the beginning.
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Post by Lisa on Mar 28, 2009 3:51:03 GMT 10
See, I didn't mind the Human/Transfigured Crow element - but making him man-like ruined it for me. It removed all the charm from Nawat (imo). I really think it was Aly who needed to see things differently to make that relationship a possibility - not Nawat.
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 28, 2009 9:58:03 GMT 10
The Nawat/Aly thing squicked me a little. Not only the animal/human Nawat was just too... innocent for Aly and she totally played him. I think he had to become "man-like" or otherwise Aly would have used him and walked all over him.
Aly was a static character, but I can't imagine her changing either.
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Post by boosette on Mar 28, 2009 10:13:06 GMT 10
It was as if ... all this work went into making Nawat something completely different from what Aly had dated before (which, something else that takes place entirely offscreen) only to have his manishness asserted in such a way as to make him no different from all the other guys Aly dated before.
Not to mention she had a world more chemistry with Taybur (whose age is never mentioned in canon; I would have bought him as 22-24 so the argument of "no more age gaps ever!" doesn't hold water for me.)
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Wild
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Crazy Canuck
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Post by Wild on Mar 28, 2009 11:26:50 GMT 10
^When I was reading TQ I wanted Taybur/Aly to happen so badly. Like you pointed out they had a lot more chemistry than what I saw between Aly and Nawat.
As for hating Aly, I don't hate her. She had this Mary Sue feeling towards her since we never saw her develop as a character and get the full back story. It felt like we were suppose to accept that she had these suburb abilities at a young age because she’s the daughter of the King's Champion and Spymaster who is the former King of Thieves. I didn’t like that at all but even with that said I still enjoyed the series.
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Post by Katty on Mar 28, 2009 11:31:48 GMT 10
Tammy said in an interview that he was 35 in TQ and then went on to totally quash any pairings of him with with Aly or Dove because the age gap was too great and she didn't want to go down the Daine/Numair path again.
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Wild
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Crazy Canuck
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Post by Wild on Mar 28, 2009 11:44:22 GMT 10
=(
Bah! Well, I can always enjoy some fanfiction of the pairing then.
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Post by boosette on Mar 28, 2009 12:52:53 GMT 10
Tammy said in an interview that he was 35 in TQ and then went on to totally quash any pairings of him with with Aly or Dove because the age gap was too great and she didn't want to go down the Daine/Numair path again. Yep, that was what I was referring to when I said I'd've bought him as being in his young 20s, since it's never explicitly mentioned in the text. (I'm selective about what quasi-canon I accept - this is one of those things where I like what's in my head better than what's in Pierce's head.) |
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Post by Anaroriel on Mar 29, 2009 4:24:26 GMT 10
35? Really? I did not picture him as 35. Well, there was still more chemistry with Aly/Taybur than Aly/Nawat whatever Taybur's age. (Which suddenly makes my Aly/Jon fic canon. Aly shows no discrimation when flirting with older men.  ) I really wish Aly/Taybur did happen though.  |
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Post by Lisa on Mar 29, 2009 23:44:59 GMT 10
See, I'm among the few who never really got into the idea of Aly/Taybur when I was reading, or when I later reflected on it. I'm going to have to reread TQ (*groan*) and see what ideas I can drum up regarding their chemistry.
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Post by boosette on Mar 30, 2009 1:20:17 GMT 10
The audiobook makes it far more tolerable an experience, btw. The reader does an excellent Aly-voice.
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Post by Lisa on Mar 30, 2009 1:23:32 GMT 10
Yes, I second that opinion! I absolutely loved TC on audiobook, and TQ was much better.
In general, the audio books of Tamora Pierce's works are quite nice - especially the full-cast audio.
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Post by boosette on Mar 30, 2009 1:28:30 GMT 10
I've never actually listened to full cast audio - though I've wanted to. I won't torrent them 'cause they're a small company that I'd like to support with $$, in the event that I actually have disposable income again at some point in the next century. XD
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Post by cha hoppy on Mar 30, 2009 12:07:57 GMT 10
I'm not even sure where I would rank Aly compared to the other heroines. I would probably need to read the series over and focus more on the main character's traits and comparing them to others. As when I'm reading the books, I tend to like the main character well enough as I follow along with them through their books.
But I do agree, that Aly does lack some depth, as we really miss seeing her develop in the beginning before TC and TQ as well as really during or between the two books. If she develops or changes, I would say it probably seems a bit subtle and nothing drastic which would be seen if she was faced with more conflicts and not always coming out on top.
Which I think is part of the problem. Aly tends to come out on top with many of the tasks she takes on. She doesn't tend to fail horribly. I wonder though if this is perhaps from the fact that she isn't dealing with "expert" spies or people who are so in control like we see in Tortall, as Tortall tends to give off a feeling of being like advanced and almost having perfect control of their situations at times compared to other countries, but this might be from the fact that we are reading from Tortall character's point of views. So the question is actually, what is the status of people in the Copper Isle. How smart of are they? How does their form of government compare to Tortall and with that there people. As I'm given the impression that the Copper Isles are a lessor country which can lend into the reason why perhaps their "Spy master" is not so great and what not. Although, being on the lesser scale does not necessarily equate to not being good or having strong people, but the fact remains we are viewing things from mostly Aly's point of view.
The racial issues in the books tended to annoy me a little bit but then I don't mind them completely as it lends a bit of reality to the books. It would seem almost too perfect if Aly did everything perfect with regards to the different race or even if they were written in a whole "equality" sense. However, I do think there is a fine line between "equality" sense and having too much racial problems, but that may be a personal preference in the end.
And towards Aly's cocky/superior attitude with her abilities, they do seem a little out of place, but as many said this may be from the fact that we were not with her as she gained her abilities. But even if she wasn't completely perfect in her skills, I can still see her being a bit of a cocky attitude or smug, as she is the daughter of the Lioness and the Spy Master of Tortall. There is something to be said of having great parents, but again, it doesn't necessarily make the child apt to have all these great abilities. However, I was able to accept it mostly as I took in the back story that was given for Aly. So I could probably see things both ways.
It's been some time since I last read TC and TQ (though I'm working on re-reading TC currently), so I may not make complete sense or grasping at straws
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Post by thepurpletyrant on Apr 4, 2009 12:47:18 GMT 10
Aly's story needed to be a trilogy; whereas all the other heroines in Tortall earned their skills (and we saw them doing it) Aly appears on the scene with a an attitude problem and the abilities of a spy three times her age. The things that shaped her character - growing up with Alanna as a mother, learning from George, the ill-fated meeting at thirteen where she nearly got killed ... all happens off-page. Things like the life-in-peril meeting aren't even alluded to in her text, and it grates. Excuse my ignorance, but what is incident that happens when she's 13? I can't remember/never heard. |
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). I mean yes, she grated on my nerves a little during TQ, and she definitely has her flaws as far as a character goes, but overall I enjoyed her as a character. I think she suited the DotL books well!
) 
