Fate
Squire
Posts: 1,333
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Post by Fate on Apr 16, 2010 11:30:11 GMT 10
Cassandra Claire, also known as Cassandra Clare, is the author of the popular Mortal Instruments series, she is also known for her fan fiction, the most popular being the Draco Trilogy, which she started in 2000 and concluded in 2006. She was accused of plagiarism and banned from fanfiction.net after evidence proved she had lifted text from various TV series and books sometimes without proper citation I was largely unaware about the plagiarism scandal until it came up on another forum (Kingscross) when I started to research it. You can read a detailed description here and the gist of it here or here. I am personally irked by this. Not that I was a fan of her books to begin with. I thought there was some questionable similarities to Harry Potter as well as Star Wars (see my rant). I was also surprised to find Tammy apparently dismissing the claims of plagiarism. What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by Lisa on Apr 16, 2010 12:03:00 GMT 10
Tammy's defense was interesting... I wonder if she would feel the same if it was pointed out that someone had lifted her text.
I was in the HP fandom during the era of CassieClaire, and debated against her once in the Ron/Hermione v. Harry/Hermione wars - which is probably why I don't like her. I tend to have a negative view of the people who were H/Hr shippers in those threads at Fiction Alley. (This was pre-OotP, to put it in perspective.)
Her plagiarism got to me during the Lord of the Rings/Very Secret Diaries phase, when she lifted from Helen Fielding without crediting her. (you'll note that when the Dancing Dove did the VSD challenge, we specifically gave credit to both Helen Fielding AND Cassandra Claire.)
She and Heidi really got to me during the plagiarism scandal because Heidi is an attorney who was defending Cassie, only to have it later brought up that she herself lifted from Frances Hodges Burnett in her own fanfiction.
(yes, I'm a HP fandom veteran, and I have all the scars to prove it. *sigh*)
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Fate
Squire
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Post by Fate on Apr 16, 2010 12:17:17 GMT 10
I was wondering that too Lisa :/ I found her dismisal of the plagiarism a little unsettling.
And on another note I was actually reading your VSD and others the other night while (not) studying ^^ still makes me giggle.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 16, 2010 12:38:51 GMT 10
On one hand, I kind of understand the "hey, she's young, we all screw up" mentality. Especially since it *is* fanfiction, which is often ethically questionable when it comes to copyright law in the first place, and the author isn't making money off of other people's works. But on the other... theft is theft. I wouldn't excuse a college age person who repeatedly stole things from a store while insisting that she was morally right, would I? :/
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Post by jazzyjess on Apr 16, 2010 13:27:16 GMT 10
I was genuinely surprised that no one else had been aware of the whole Cassie Clair thing before I mentioned it in passing elsewhere. I'd also been very involved in the HP fandom at that time and had been a huge fan of her Draco trilogy then until an author I respected on ff.net put out a link to Bad Penny on her LJ, and reading through the whole affair really poisoned all of Cassie Clair's writings for me. The worst part, I thought, was that even in the face of obvious lifting (even entire paragraphs at a time) she would protest and claim it as her own material, or claim that she was friends with the author who really didn't care - but who is to know if that had been true at all? This livejournal entry from 2006 (concerning Cassie Claire and other fandom plagiarists) really caught my attention, and I'd suggest it to anyone else interested!
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Post by Lisa on Apr 16, 2010 13:36:43 GMT 10
That LJ post is awesome, Jess! Thanks for the link!!
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Post by Sam-and-antha on Apr 16, 2010 13:43:18 GMT 10
I had no Idea about any of this, a Friend of mine from work acctualy loves her books and tried to get me to read them but I didnt like them to much, granted I try to stay away from the HP sites for the most part anymore, I used to be on there all the time when I was younger, but the people are just so mean anymore.
I never fully understood plagiarism, and teachers were always answering questions on it for me. But why does it matter if she wasnt getting any money for it? I understand the crediblity issue, and it was all wrong, but how can they make a case out of it?
and what is BNF?
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Post by jazzyjess on Apr 16, 2010 14:09:43 GMT 10
A BNF is a "big name fan". According to this site, it is "someone who is prominent within a particular fandom (often science fiction)." The working definition of plagiarism is "the process of copying another person's idea or written work and claiming it as original" (Encarta), and I think the biggest problem with CC was that she denied it and never did give credit. As Liz Marcs suggests in the LJ post I linked earlier, there is a big difference between using a particular line or concept with credit back to the original author, and stealing huge chunks of novels without crediting the original author, and instead assuming all the credit. I'm sure that, had she cited her sources correctly, this would not have blown up so big - even if she had gone back and added citations, it wouldn't have become so out of hand. Bad Penny puts chunks of her text side-by-side with the text of the original, uncredited sources. This is the link again; if you press ctrl+f on your computer for the 'find' option and paste in "Draco Sinister, Chapter 9 (this is still viewable in PoU 5359)", it will take you directly to the spot.
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Post by Sam-and-antha on Apr 16, 2010 14:21:01 GMT 10
I googled her, some of it is quite bad (and thanks for the deffinitions) but does it still count if you're taking an idea? Like lets say everyone has the whole 'Kel wears a dress and ''so and so'' falls inlove with her' it's an idea, & they are always at a ball and normaly have about the same way of saying things. That's where I am always shady with plagiarism.
Its stupid that she denied it, even if she didn't think she had done anything wrong she should have just appologised. And the fact that it seemed like she knew she had been wrong but was still seeing how long she could reap her rewards and 15 min. irks me a bit.
and I was looking at the artworks/fanworks for her books...uhm, boy with dark messy hair (and glasses sometimes) and a girl with red hair and green eyes?
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Post by jazzyjess on Apr 16, 2010 14:32:38 GMT 10
(Liz Marcs and her entry are highly wonderful to reference in this whole business!)
"But in all seriousness, there are only so many plots. Where the original element comes in is how those plots are dressed up. Plots are the skeletons and they're pretty much ready-made. The stories, which involves the physical details, are pretty much up to the writer."
Building off this, I would say that generic ideas like "Kel wears a dress and so-and-so falls in love with her" are not on the same page as plagiarism, as long as you are making it your own and not copying the exact set-up, exact costume, exact dialogue, etc. (this also includes copying the scenes directly and changing only words here and there).
As Goldenlake here has a general disclaimer, acknowledging the threat of copyright infringement, being sure to credit Tammy for everything that is hers, and making clear that none of this is for monetary benefit, we may be safe from copyright infringement charges. On other sites, though, such as deviantART, we need to be careful to include a disclaimer if posting fics there.
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Fate
Squire
Posts: 1,333
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Post by Fate on Apr 16, 2010 14:39:12 GMT 10
What bothers me with Tammy's "hey, she's young, we all screw up" mentality is that she wasn't that young and she was a professional journalist. This website claims she did in fact profit financially form her fanfiction, although I'm not entirely sure how reliable it is. Oh and Sam (I'm I allowed to call you Sam? What about Sammy?): Harry, Ginny, Draco, and even Lupin (he's a werewolf too).
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Post by Sam-and-antha on Apr 16, 2010 15:06:30 GMT 10
CRAZY! Yes you can call me Sam, Sammy, "hey you' (alothough I dont know how well that will work out here).
I Kinda agree with Tammy but I also agree with the fact that she should have known better, Yes, she wasn't well known and she maybe was short for a few ideas and borrowed thinking no one would notice. But then when she became more well know she should have said she was wrong, that she made a mistake.
This whole thing makes me wish that other authors who deserved the attention would get it, Like Libba Bray or Christopher Paloni (who got 15 min when he deserved about 30 to 60) Because I read on a site that they were planning a movie already?( IMDB only has a page that says 2012) is that why this is all resurfacing? or just cause of Tammy's post?.
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Fate
Squire
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Post by Fate on Apr 16, 2010 15:13:40 GMT 10
Don't even get me into the flying moter cycles, people who are rats, and suspciously Voldemort character.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 16, 2010 21:55:24 GMT 10
The funny thing about disclaimers, though... if you ever write fanfiction for an author who *doesn't* want fanfiction, adding a disclaimer is admission of guilt. You can get away with an "I didn't realize" kind of defense.
I once did a panel at a convention on fanfiction and its legal shades of grey, where we went into legal protection under the realm of parody, and things like that. (there wasn't a lawyer on our panel staff, but we conversed with a patent lawyer who handles copyright issues before we planned it.) I'll have to see where I can find the notes.
I think the thing that has HP fans incensed who were around during her reign of terror was that, no she didn't make money off of it. But she is *now*. Whether or not her work now involves plagiarism, it should be noted that she would not be published and making money today if she hadn't plagiarized in the past.
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Post by Rosie on Apr 16, 2010 22:35:33 GMT 10
I've had people steal bits of my fanfic, and use it on the same small site that my work was on. I only picked it up because I know pieces of my work inside out, and I'm good at picking up author fingerprints. It's really disappointing to find somebody doing it, and I hated seeing somebody else get credit for my words.
Cassie Claire's plagiarism, and subsequent attempt to cover it up infuriates me. I'm also not overly impressed with Tammy's "she was just trying to find her style" excuse - because in using other people's words, she wasn't finding her own style at all. If I had taken a quarter of the amount of other works she used without quoting properly or at all and stuck it in a university essay, I would have been made to repeat the year. Obviously fanfiction is a more informal environment, but it's still theft. If she had been younger, or there hadn't been the ridiculous cover-up, I might have felt more okay with the excuses.
Anyway. I'm glad we don't have these issues in our fandom!
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Post by Lisa on Apr 17, 2010 0:12:50 GMT 10
Oh, I know. Which reminds me, I have to post this awesome fic I wrote about Douglass and his Teddy bear...
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Post by Rosie on Apr 17, 2010 0:19:10 GMT 10
Stop, thief!!!!
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Fate
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Post by Fate on Apr 17, 2010 4:43:21 GMT 10
Upon reading more it sounds like CC was bullying other people in the fandom, is it really true Lisa?
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Rowena
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back to school... >.<
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Post by Rowena on Apr 17, 2010 5:46:11 GMT 10
Since I wasn't in the HP fandom at the time this occured (or, I didn't know that fanfiction existed...) and I only found out about it when Fate brought it up on Kings Cross (I'm glad you made a thread ) and I'd already read and enjoyed the Mortal Instruments series. (Yes, I admit I liked them. I thought they were funny.) I think it's very unprofessional (even though fanfiction isn't a profession) to take someone's work and pass it off as your own, published or no, and it has been drilled into our heads at school that plagarism is a very, very bad thing. I found the Bad Penny blog fascinating, and obviously my opinion is that she deserved getting kicked off FF.net for plagarising in her fics. ...however, I think what Tammy was sort of saying (and I only skimmed the page) is that we shouldn't let that mistake effect how we view her books now. Clearly something that was published cannot contain copyrighted material (books like "Evernight" notwithstanding) and I'm not supporting anything she's done, but I don't believe the Mortal Instruments series does. I think that the resemblence Jace, Clary, and Simon may have to Draco, Ginny and Harry is sort of put off by their relationships and personalities, which are very different. Thinking about it the characters are similar to begin with, but what happens to them isn't.
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Post by Lisa on Apr 17, 2010 6:58:19 GMT 10
I didn't experience it firsthand, but I know a lot of people who feel that they were.
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Fate
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Post by Fate on Apr 17, 2010 8:48:10 GMT 10
What a beetch.
And I think the whole Jace/Draco, Clary/Ginny, Simon/Harry thing was a way of making her favorite ship cannon.
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Post by Rachy on Apr 17, 2010 17:34:46 GMT 10
I was a bit wary of reading her books because of this, and then still look a little unfavourably on them because of that - they were good, but they won't be super high on my recommendations list.
I do think that her plagarism was disgusting, and it puts a sick feeling in your stomach to think of it. I hadn't realised how bad it actually was until reading the links, and it's a definite black mark as to whether I read her next books.
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Rowena
Training Master
back to school... >.<
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Post by Rowena on Apr 18, 2010 7:59:45 GMT 10
I'm definitley not suporting her or anything, but how many of you have read her books? Also, I think if this happened to me, the first thing I would do is get a new pen name, not just change a spelling
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Post by Lisa on Apr 18, 2010 11:56:04 GMT 10
I admit that I haven't read her books, and haven't read any of her HP fanfiction. As I said, my experience with her was in the debate realm of the fandom.
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Fate
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Post by Fate on Apr 18, 2010 12:04:32 GMT 10
I've read the first two and am starting the third.
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Post by jazzyjess on Apr 18, 2010 16:05:27 GMT 10
I haven't read any of her published works, but I loved her Draco fanfiction trilogy until I was pointed to Bad Penny. Now I don't think I could read her books with an unbiased, clear mind.
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Post by Rachy on Apr 18, 2010 16:19:41 GMT 10
I knew about it before I read them, and it did put me off reading them, and it was something I couldn't gloss over while reading - it took a lot of enjoyment away.
Fanfic wise, I've only read the VSDs, as I wasn't aware of fanfic at the time of the Draco stuff. Published, I've read her first series, and will probably read the second series, but I definitely wouldn't buy them, and won't enjoy them anywhere near as much as I would have had it been by someone else.
The fact that she didn't change her name also strikes me as strange - fair enough, she would get more attention/recognition, but then she would also still have the notoriety? associated with her, and it's still supposedly a pseudonym.
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Rowena
Training Master
back to school... >.<
Posts: 2,661
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Post by Rowena on Apr 18, 2010 23:58:19 GMT 10
I was just wondering, becuase I read her books before I heard about this and enjoyed them, and like I was saying while the characters may be similar to others, I think the plot is really different. I haven't read any of her fanfiction work though.
On Bad Penny it definitley says that Cassandra Claire/Clare is just a pen name, so I don't understand why she wouldn't change it, unless she's not ashamed, which is what bothered me most when I read the Bad Penny thing. She wouldn't admit she did anything wrong.
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Post by Alliecat on Apr 19, 2010 1:50:48 GMT 10
I read her books before I knew anything about fanficton, let alone her plagarism. And I'll be honest, I really did love them at the time. They even earned a place as some of my favorite books, if not my favorite books at the time. Slowly, once I began to re-read them, I began to realize that the writing wasn't actually that good, and began to wonder why I had loved them so much in the first place. But it wasn't until I heard about the plagarism that my respect for her truly and utterly dropped.
Shortly thereafter, I actually got around to reading SotL (my friend had told me to read it numerous times but I never had) and realized that there was much better series out there (aka Pierce series).
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Post by Lisa on Apr 19, 2010 4:06:29 GMT 10
Name recognition is what got the publisher's attention and willingness to print her work - it's possible that she's contractually obligate to write under this name. *shrug*
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